[077] Voices for Humanity: Exploring Our Responsibilities in the Face of Genocide

Trigger Warning:
This episode discusses sensitive topics related to the October 7th 2023 attack on Israel and the ongoing conflict in Palestine, including violence, displacement, oppression and genocide. If you find these topics distressing, please prioritise your well-being and use your discretion as to how much to tune into.
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In this episode of The Modern LeadHer Way, we continue the important conversation started in the previous episode, delving deeper into the ongoing conflict in Gaza and the broader issues of taking a stand for humanity. Join me and three incredible guests as we explore our responsibilities as leaders and the significance of using our voices effectively.

Key Highlights:

• The role of denial and how it can manifest in our personal and collective experiences.
• The psychological impact of witnessing violence and suffering in the world and the healing process required to engage with these realities.
• The importance of awareness and processing emotions in response to global issues.
• Exploring actions we can take as individuals, including boycotts and supporting local businesses, to initiate change.
• A call for empowerment through small, personal choices and community activism.

This episode invites listeners to reflect on their own opinions and the ways they can contribute positively to important global conversations.

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Transcript

Automatically Transcribed With Podsqueeze

Emma Clayton 00:00:01  This is the Modern LeadHer Way the podcast for corporate career women who want to feel good on their way to the top. I'm Emma Clayton and I'll be sharing with you tangible advice to help you stop sacrificing your soul in the name of success and experience more balance, confidence, and fulfillment both in and out of work. Hello. Thanks for coming back. What's going to follow this brief intro is the second half of a conversation I was having with three guests, where we were talking about what's going on in the world, in particular from the Middle East, around Israel and Gaza, and all the things associated with taking a stand for something and actually using your voice and doing your thing. So if you haven't yet tuned in to the first half, I suggest you go back to episode 76 and start there. Otherwise, we'll just pick up where we left off. As before, this episode does come with a trigger warning. We do discuss very sensitive topics related to the ongoing conflict in Gaza. That includes things like violence, displacement, trauma, rape, and human suffering.

Emma Clayton 00:01:10  So your discretion is advised. And if you do find these topics distressing, please do refer to the resources link that we've included in the show notes below. With all that said, let's get back to the conversation and I'll see you on the other side.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:01:29  Yeah, I think it gives us and holds some kind of responsibility of where we stand. What do we stand for? What does it mean to be in this world? What does it mean to be a human and value human life? And I think what Shima says earlier is, though, that that denial that can happen. So when I look out my window and I look out and it looks fine and I go, well, the world's fine. And that is a form of denial. And we see that happening in a lot of different places. And I think in the coaching world as well is where we go. It's all good. Look, it's all good. My world looks perfect, therefore the world is perfect. And if I can maintain that, nothing gets in.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:02:13  And I think one of the reasons that happens is because there's something in us that hurts. And when we see pain in the world around us, it then touches that hurt in us and that is unbearable. And so we turn away from that. And I think the media does it. We and we can do it. And that's not to say we step into like watching until the point of overwhelm, where it's unbearable to see. It means that we can look when we have capacity and look for the length of time. And I think another part that's profoundly important is to be able to when we see to be able to process that, whether that's with ourselves or with another human being, because there have been times that I have fallen to my knees and sobbed and sobbed and sobbed because this what we are seeing is horrific. It is. It's unimaginable. And the way that enables us to stay grounded in our body is to be able to feel it. And as we feel it, the emotion comes up into our body and then gets released.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:03:25  But when we push it back in, something starts to happen as a society as well, that we can tolerate less and less of things that are awful and we start to look like, you know, let's all be grateful for everything that happens. As long as we're grateful, then everything will function. Or, you know, I'm just coming from a place of love. And while that sounds beautiful when it involves looking away, there is suppression there, there's suppression taking place and something's getting locked in because we can look towards horror and we can say no, and we can say it with love. So when we say a loving no to something that's happening, it's like, I'm not willing for this to happen in the world. It's not from a place of activation. It's not from a place of, you know, anger or fear or whatever. We can hold all the emotions, feel them, and then say, no, I'm not willing to stand in a world where people are treated like this, where they're hurt, where there's racism, where there's genocide, whatever it is that I stand in my full know with that.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:04:38  And yes, as you have experienced, Juliet, people come back and there's often, you know, a repercussion for that of people going, but what about me? And then we get to listen to them because that what about me is their own activation on October the 7th, we saw people say, I felt I had fear for my life. Now these people were in Canada. They weren't in Israel at the time, but it's because somewhere in their lineage that had been experienced in their families, so it brought it live into their system. And then people get shamed for that. But when we understand trauma, we understand all the complexity of these different threads of why people respond in the way they do, and we can meet them with a level of compassion, even when they're angry with us for saying what we're saying, for standing in a place that stands differently from where they stand. And I think a lot of people, when, you know, we can often move towards saying to somebody, but how can you not see what's going on? And that is often because people are loyal to something unconsciously and they don't actually understand what that is.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:05:57  And so they say but this. And then you go, but look here and there actually physically can't see it. So trying to make somebody see something is actually impossible. And it's almost soul destroying. When you see horror happen and the world looks somewhere else and you like try and like just look here and it just, you know, it won't happen. And that is because of that unconscious loyalty they have to whatever it is, it's like we were an injured people. Therefore we get to protect ourselves, whatever that is. And when we understand that, then we can hold those people differently as well.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:06:42  It's so important. That piece, what the subconscious also plays in our the role that it plays right where you might have come from a country that had famine. I have this, this, this client who came from a country that had massive famine. Very wealthy, very well to do. And she is very thin and she cannot gain any weight. So we actually brought it all the way there and back to that.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:07:12  And it was like, oh, but what you're talking about is also that if we go back to where we were in our tribes, that we were afraid to leave because we would die and there wouldn't be money, there wouldn't be, food, there wouldn't be shelter. And we all carry those imprints. So it's the awareness to that to, to re rewiring our capacity for change, our capacity to even look at social media, to look at and start becoming aware, having a different perspective of all of this. It's it's there's it's so multi-layered. But this conversation could on could go on for hours and hours. Yeah.

Emma Clayton 00:08:01  Absolutely. I was I was thinking, like in the early days, that or even even now there is so much pressure. I feel for those that have not turned towards, not had a view, not said anything, not shared anything. It feels like there is potentially a lot of shame and guilt that is building in those that perhaps feel like they should have said something or done something before now, and I feel that there is that push and pull.

Emma Clayton 00:08:32  I guess that you get with this. Like we expect our leaders, for example, in the coaching industry, are the people we look to as leaders to have a view, to take a stance and, you know, to to tell everyone where they're at and to give something for others to follow or not. But there is just such resistance to doing that as you like, for some of the reasons you've already mentioned. But with that, I imagine comes either a lot of shame or just kind of almost growing resistance to just be ignorant to what's going on. Right? Just to really not even open just a little bit to to what else might be going on out there because the shame is too much to hold. So on a real personal level, there is like that. Yeah. I think what we're seeing is this real pressure for those that haven't spoken out to speak out and then that grow in shame, that's going to be circulating amongst people that haven't yet spoken out. And I also feel like when we look at other world leaders that are in power who have a single narrative, despite the growing numbers of voices that are coming in with a not an opposing, but just a like another world view, right? How long can we survive in a society that is led by these people in power that have this single narrative that is becoming, I don't know, just you can't have any respect for it.

Emma Clayton 00:10:05  If you had any in the past, you can't have any respect for it moving forward. So like, where do we go from here?

Megan Kate Clinton 00:10:12  I think it requires profound collective healing. It's really the only thing that really changes anything. Because what we see, even in the American election is that unconscious loyalty. So Trump used that very effectively. So he he streamed in those messages into, you know, we all know how social media kind of our feed gets, you know, streamlined very quickly in a certain place. So it's very easy to figure out what message different people need to receive. And when we feed into that kind of unconscious Conscious loyalty and bias. We quickly manipulate the world into a certain way, and that is so easily done when people have unprocessed trauma and it seems like such a big ass, you know, how do you go out into the world and go, okay, we all have to heal. And, you know, and also, whose responsibility is it? And, you know, you mentioned the other part as well, which I think, you know, I've moved away from a little bit, but I think is profoundly important is the shame of like if I haven't spoken, what does that mean? And I think we touched it a couple of times in this discussion, is that it's not about forcing yourself to do something that you don't have the capacity for, and it is more recognizing, I think, as Juliet mentioned a couple of times, it's like, what is it that makes it hard to speak? And that is something you can hold yourself.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:11:41  That is something you can go to somebody and go, I desire to say something and I have all of these fears that I will be ostracized, that people will get angry with me, that I'll be made wrong, whatever they are. These are all our own activated trauma coming up to be healed. And we don't need to actually speak. But when we take kind of radical responsibility for ourselves and go, what is happening for me that I'm not speaking because when we shame ourselves, we just freeze. Something gets locked away and we can't actually do something. But when we actually allow ourselves to soften into the emotions that are coming up as to why we haven't possibly spoken up or done, something, whether it's, you know, about inequality or racism or climate change or genocide, whatever it is, there are a lot of areas we can speak and not speak that I think that is where change becomes possible when we take radical responsibility, when we don't do something and we desire to. It's obviously a lot more complicated when it's unconscious, but for those people who have desired to and haven't, I think there there's a real opportunity there to go, what is it in me? And I think that's those people are possibly the, you know, they talk about change in that bell shaped curve and it's that 3% at either side that moves society.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:13:09  It's not inside the bell, it moves society. And I think the more people that heal, that little edge starts to move in a certain direction. And I think it's, you know, collective healing when we do it in group spaces, in circles, you know, can sound really hippy, whether we do it personally. But it it is actually what brings change into the world.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:13:34  Beautiful work is unchanging and circles and and bringing this to the world. We can all rise that shame and move through it, and then we can take action for what feels right for us and everyone's individual. Right.

Sheema Khurshed 00:13:54  I think there's also that element, which, isn't this is not the first time that it's come up. Is that helplessness that what can I, as an individual, you know, I have bills to pay. I have kids that are running around rampant. I've got, you know, whatever else going on in my my day to day life. What can I, as an individual change, really? You know what? What is within my capacity.

Sheema Khurshed 00:14:20  And I feel like, a little bit of what Meagan was talking about that looking away, but but still with a desire to do something. But you look away because you feel like it's too big for you individually to influence in any way. And, you know, one of the, the things that, that I tell my friends maybe, admittedly, at this point it's probably more enforcement than than tell them I'm just like, you know, when we go out, sorry, we're not we're not having coke. I'm not eating the Mac, McDonald's or KFC. I refused to to buy it for anyone. I'm not going to Starbucks. and I feel like sometimes it's like a silent protest, right? You don't have to be out in the world telling everyone exactly why you're doing it. but but I feel like even, even a little bit of that adoption where people sort of turn away from those things are the norm in their lives and say, I'm going to make a choice and and I'm going to do it with the, you know, with the intention that it will at some point hopefully lead to a change.

Sheema Khurshed 00:15:30  I feel like it's almost like moving from a inactive state to an active state. And, you know, you're you're sort of propelling yourself into action in an environment Moment where, you know, you can't really do much. And I know for me, at the very beginning of when I was educating myself on this, the boycott stuff was probably the first thing that I sort of went, oh, I can do this every single day. This is something that I can do and influence. And, and I say that to a lot of people, but, but I will still say that, that, that even that is still quite challenging. And, and I think, Megan, you probably covered it earlier that it's, it's again, it's the reality that you don't want to confront because if you say, I'm not going to drink Coke or I'm not going to go to Starbucks, you're acknowledging what what is going on behind the scenes. And I feel like even that that is, is is difficult to, for, for some people to fathom or to just, just to come to the internally understanding that that is actually what is happening.

Sheema Khurshed 00:16:39  And, and you know, this is how you can make a change. And I feel like something as simple as that is probably too radical for some people.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:16:47  But I also love where actually we have seen what a change it has made not to drink Starbucks and also just to bring people aware of it when they hand me a Starbucks coffee saying I'm sorry, I'm not drinking that. It's like oh why not? And then you just explain a little bit and say, oh, I wasn't aware of that. Or when my partner came back with a certain brand of, washing tablets, I'm like, no, I've just seen that they actually sponsor the IDF and on videos they are there of their washing machines while the IDF soldiers are laughing at killing Palestinians. That's not on for me. I will never, ever buy them again, although I've been loyal to them for ten x years. And he's like, whoa, I didn't realize. I'm like, no, but let's just start looking at our daily consumption.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:17:37  Why do we buy things? What do we do? You can also take that to extremes. It's like, well, I can't buy anything anywhere anymore because everything does that. And it's like, okay, so do what you can. I don't buy it. Certain things don't, like you say, don't go out to dinner here. don't support other things. And just kind of like, see, where can you start supporting smaller, smaller shops? Like, I like buying things locally because that means I'm kind of like supporting the people close to me. Where can I support a Palestinian olive oil company and buy their olive oil instead of buying the Spanish ones? It's those little things that do make a difference.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:18:24  And I think it's so important that we because as you say, Sheema as well, is like to step out of that in action where they're frozen. State of life because I you feel waves of it almost because you see, like, you know, marches, rallies and they start to come up and then everyone does it.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:18:45  And because the world meets this, you know, movement with the turning away, people just get exhausted. And it's like, how often can I rally myself to actually move in this direction? And so these small things are actually profoundly important because they give us that sense of agency, which is one of our core human needs. And, you know, you see, in South Africa, the sanctions is what tipped it over the edge when, like, entitled white people couldn't get their rugby team to come and play in South Africa any longer. They started to actually look up and go, oh, actually, maybe something's happening that shouldn't be happening any longer. and as horrifying as that is to know about humanity, that it actually is only when you hit, you know, the pockets of corporations of industry. But, you know, I have deep activist roots. And, you know, we have done corporate, you know, campaigns where you get people to boycott certain products in order for something to change.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:19:51  And industries change much quicker than governments. So one should never underestimate the impact we can have by just even a few people starting to do something, even a slight movement, or watch an industry start to change because they can see where people are starting to go. Because again, with that bell shaped curve, they're watching that 3%. And if that 3% moves, you don't need everyone to boycott them. But just a few start going. Then Coke or Starbucks start saying to government, hey, this kind of messaging is not working. this is not working for our company. And things start to actually change. So one actually has a lot of impact with making small choices of how we choose to buy and and as you say, Juliet. My daughter says to me, but I can't buy anything that has got palm oil in. And this has come from here. And, you know, it's come from the other side of the world. And I want a strawberry, but it comes from Spain and I'm like, oh, the eco footprint.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:20:50  And, you know, the carbon footprint that you do, you, you do what you can do. You know, we have a no waste policy in our homes. So it's like, what do you do with the packaging? What do you buy if you can't get rid of the packaging, if it can't be recycled. So you know everyone's got their continuum that they work on. But wherever you work on, it's like when you can take yourself out of that, that hopelessness that the world is going to fall. Or, you know, I've been very involved in climate activism as well, and as a scientist there and, and, you know, how do we hold this despair that can come up and how do we resource ourselves? By doing, and I don't believe it is should fall on individuals as well. This is a government responsibility as well. Individuals can do a profound amount, but actually leaders, corporations, governments do need to step in and take responsibility for this poly crisis we face in the world.

Emma Clayton 00:21:57  I love that because that is absolutely, like I said, something we have within our control. Has anyone here been to a protest? Have you? Oh, tell me about it. Because I, I've only just found.

Emma Clayton 00:22:09  The organization that like tells you when it is because I always think, oh I missed that one and it was local. what has your experience being because again, we get fed a narrative about what happens on these, pro-Palestine protests. Right?

Megan Kate Clinton 00:22:21  I've only been to one in South Africa, which is really small. So I think our people and for us, I think what was so beautiful for it is that, you know, the the area is so much smaller than we imagine in Gaza. So it's 40km. I think there's 40 or roughly that. So from one end of in Cape Town to the other, we there was a march. So we all walked and depending on how young or fit or you were, how far you walked. And there was again that sense of doing something, of saying something which takes took me out of that place of hopelessness, being surrounded as well by other people.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:23:03  Because often, you know, our close friends, as you say, you can go out for dinner and say, I don't want to eat there. And everyone goes, well, why not? And then suddenly to be in a rally and everybody stands for the same thing you do. It's kind of like for me it was like a relief, like, okay, it's not just me saying this on my own. There actually are other people out there, even though we see rallies, you know, on social media, to actually be in one gives you that sense of like, change is possible if we all stand together.

Emma Clayton 00:23:35  Beautiful. Juliet. Did you say you'd been to one?

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:23:38  Oh, yeah. I remember taking my children when the girls were probably four and five. For the girls were for the boys were five, six and seven. And I took them to protests by myself. We were like.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:23:53  What have your four little children? They've made their own little signs. And already then it was such an incredible feeling of inclusion.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:24:03  And I've been one and two of the ones in London, this past year. And you always have a few crazies, right? Let's be honest. And that's what gets most of the publicity. The ones on the outskirts that are actually the ones that that want to create some kind of like havoc, but they don't talk about the 99.9% and of people of all ethnicities, Hasidic Jews, Ashkenazi Jews. Everything. People from Holocaust, from the Holocaust saying, you know, this not no means no, not in our name means really. No. Never again means never again. That means across everywhere and the feeling of being part of something. I was crying half the time. Now half the time is like, hey, I like free, free Palestine. And I'm like, oh, and that chant then is considered to you not correct? Yet when the IDF does it, it's fine. So it's like and then all of a sudden you notice that everyone is like, no, we are standing for something, we have a stand.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:25:17  And if this is the only thing that we can do, maybe 1 or 2 Saturdays in the whole year, perfect. We're taking a stand for something.

Emma Clayton 00:25:28  And is there a feeling that, like the younger generations coming through, I really have more of a finger on the pulse. And like also, they are leading with their hearts, right? And that they're taking a stand and saying this is not on. And like this is not the world we want to live in. And you said you've got your daughter is a 23.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:25:51  Yeah. My girl, my my twins are 23 and they're very active. in the whole Palestine thing. Zina is, is in her college and her university. She's leading that her, her art is all about it. Today she wrote a letter. You know, like, if I was born in Gaza 23, all I would have seen. And then she writes a whole poem about it, and it just brings it back home. It's like, oh, yeah, you're 23.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:26:26  All you know in Gaza is being besieged. And yet so many beautiful things came from it. So many people, turn to photography or turn to art, or showed the beauty that was even in these quite dark circumstances. So I see a lot of youth, really are taking their stand and saying, no, we just like if if we go back to the Vietnam War, there were it was mostly the youth, the, the, the, the younger generation that stood for something and that created that change.

Sheema Khurshed 00:27:07  I have to say, I think being a kid now, or, you know, sort of growing up in this environment where you are pummeled with information. I, I would not trade my ignorant childhood for that because I feel like we kind of, you know, you obviously like, there are other things to be thinking about when you're growing up and everything, but the responsibility that is on the shoulders of the new, the new generation is incredible. every time I see Greta Thunberg, every time I see her, I'm just genuinely like, I mean, she's got a legacy already, and she's not even, I think out of her teens the just the sheer responsibility of essentially fixing a generationally inherited mess.

Sheema Khurshed 00:28:03  I have a lot, of, lot of hope for, for these guys because, I mean, even on social media, you see kids who have grown up in Israel and you see kids who have interactions with other kids on social media and they're saying, well, this is what I've been told. You know, I was told that I remember looking at one reel where there was a very young child. Very young. It was probably 12, 12 to 15 who was saying, well, to to another guy that, well, don't you know that, Palestinians had Israelis as slaves? And that's the history that he's that kid had been taught. I don't know where where that information came from. But suddenly, in the course of that very short reel, this, this, this kid was definitely like, hold on. What are you telling me? Because on the other side, the other person was like, that's blatantly not true. This is this is pure falsehood. And and so even a 12 to 15 year old is probably going to take it upon.

Sheema Khurshed 00:29:09  I hope they take it upon themselves to do some education on their own, outside of what they've been, whatever propaganda they've been taught. but even just that responsibility, imagine being that kid who you you've got this one story. Your whole life you've been told that we were hurt and therefore, you know, we must protect ourselves, as Meagan said. And and we must, you know, do all this, and we are right and dadada and as a 1212 year old to to to figure out that actually the reality is that what I've been told is not true. And then you have a family that probably is still very much sitting in that know this is this is, you know, the truth. And did it hurt? And so all the, all the big change happens from within. Right? I think we know that like I mean even with in apartheid. Right. If it wasn't for white people sort of saying this is wrong, nothing would have changed if it wasn't for men saying, hey, women should have some rights to nothing changed.

Sheema Khurshed 00:30:18  And so I think, the response that, you know, I just I have a lot of empathy for someone who's grown up in that environment, has their whole life in front of them and, and is potentially now being realizing that that they've grown up on, on lies and, and, you know, make believe why for essentially I think you can connect the fact that it's political gain or it's financial gain or whatever it is. But, that responsibility is just incredible. And, I yeah, I mean, I feel like just based on sort of the limited reels that I watch, there's some hope this there's some creeping hope that, you know, these kids are growing up, the ones that are already activists, like Juliette's daughters and all the other kids. I mean, even my niece and nephew are, you know, sort of getting more and more involved. You're kind of like, guys, you gotta you gotta you gotta do something because you're the hope, right? Because I feel like, you know, generationally, I don't know that that I feel like we're too far gone to to make the change.

Sheema Khurshed 00:31:27  But these are the guys that are going to inherit the world, and and the legacy. And so, yeah, just I have a lot of empathy for them, for the childhoods, early teens, that environment that they're growing up in. The conversations they're having with, you know, their peers, around these topics. You know, I was talking to my friends in school about nothing related to the world. GS exactly.

Emma Clayton 00:31:56  So maybe we won't see the change in our lifetime. But, there is hope because of who's coming through. And that's down to, you know, the parenting of those in this generation as well. Partly. Right. So, okay, so I feel like we need to sort of wrap this up, even though we could continue to go off on many different tangents. What I will ask these ladies to do is give me their best resources. So podcasts to listen to, books to read, people to follow, that kind of thing. We will include the resources in the show notes, as well as how you can follow these ladies and their journeys on going.

Emma Clayton 00:32:36  But if there are some kind of closing words that each of you might want to refer to or reference or talk about in terms of like thinking about the listener who might be here, maybe not knowing where she stands. what would you want to say to her just to give her full permission to go find out where she does stand in the world?

Sheema Khurshed 00:33:02  I will just say very quickly that I actually already want the other two ladies have already said that you change. What you can donate is a very impactful way to to to help and to contribute. Boycott is within everyone's power and educate yourself and you know and speak about it.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:33:24  Yes. Without repeating those great suggestions as well, I think go gently with yourself, because it takes a lot to turn towards, atrocities in the world. And I think one of the most profound things we can do as well, alongside all the action that we can take, is to look at what comes up for us when we look towards something like that, so that we can take radical responsibility for ourselves, whether it enables us to speak more or say more, do more.

Megan Kate Clinton 00:33:57  That's one thing. But also, even if we sit with what we see, to be able to actually feel it when it happens and allow ourselves into feeling more of that and allowing more of that to go through. Because even though we do it for ourselves, something happens when we heal individually. It does actually ripple out into the world and how we speak, how we respond to others in the world and how we own the world.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:34:25  Much sad here, except that my company, my bronze called feel fully used. So I encourage people to actually feel, to start becoming aware of emotions that are challenging what's happening in your body. What body sensations is this bringing up? To reach out, to try and find a group, and really to bring awareness of what's happening in yourself as you are turning back into what is happening. I know that in social media there was this ad, I think it was French, and there are these people on the train and they were just watching their their social media feed on, on the phone and in the train windows.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:35:11  You saw what was happening in Gaza and the bombings and then this. And then they're just laughing on their social media. So beautiful awareness of what's happening and be be gentle like my own saying, really start being gentle with yourself. And what are the what are maybe 1 or 2 little things that you can stand for this week and then slowly start building your capacity. Because that's just one thing. I see people blow themselves out that they try to do too much, too soon, too fast. Go slowly. Start reading some books, like like I know that you. That's the next question that you're asking for people that that want to actually just look at Israeli scholars that have spoken about this for years, Ilan Poppy and Noam Chomsky, there are so many of them that actually, if you want to take it from an Israeli point of view that has that they have opened their eyes and they're like, oh, we've seen that. It's actually not what we have been taught. Do it that way. Start looking at that.

Juliette Karaman-van Schaardenburg 00:36:18  Then start. Start looking at what are some of the Palestinian writers that maybe just some of the poems that they've written. If you don't want to get into the politics, maybe some of the art, what what some of the music that's moves you and start taking those little steps into what moves you.

Emma Clayton 00:36:39  And I think hopefully what we've kind of demonstrated through this conversation is there are safe spaces for you to bring your whole self wherever you are, wherever you stand currently, whatever you're holding to open up a conversation and to just be curious and ask questions and bring whatever it is that you have, that you're holding. So I want to thank each of you for doing just that today, for the beautiful conversation, for all the sort of strands that we brought in and for anyone listening. Thank you for being here. And if there is anything that you you want to continue conversation with, then please do feel free to reach out to myself. I'm sure the others will also be very open to further in a conversation.

Emma Clayton 00:37:28  And yeah, thank you again for being here and hopefully this, if nothing else, it gives you again that a little bit of hope and also enough information to kind of empower you to know what to do next. So thank you for being here. And until next time, take care.