The Modern LeadHer Way

[090] Emma's Interview On The Think Link Lead Podcast with Bijal Shah

• Emma Clayton

Share episode

Send us a text

Our host, Emma was recently interviewed by Bijal Shah on her Think Link Lead podcast and with her blessing, we're sharing it with you here too. Be sure to check it out for more on leadership on Apple or Spotify: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/think-link-lead-podcast/id1771304413

In this episode Emma Clayton shares her journey from corporate director to leadership coach, revealing how her 20-year career led her to question traditional success and pursue a path helping women leaders find balance, confidence, and fulfilment without sacrificing their souls.

• Left the corporate world after 20 years to become a leadership coach following redundancy
• Created the Modern Leader Way movement to encourage women to know, like, and trust themselves first
• Uses Human Design as a tool to help leaders understand their natural decision-making styles and energy types
• Works as a confidant to executives, creating safe spaces for vulnerability and authentic leadership
• Helps women leaders drop the "mask of fake confidence" to build true emotional intelligence
• Runs Time Out retreats in Margate where leaders can disconnect, reflect and reconnect with themselves
• Believes the future of leadership needs to be "more human" with greater authenticity and emotional intelligence
• Focuses on helping leaders through transitions when self-doubt and imposter syndrome often emerge
• Encourages women to lead in their own unique way rather than modelling predecessors


Join the Time Out Retreat waitlist to hear first about the next one: https://www.emmaclaytonxo.com/f/retreat-waitlist

Start your Human Design Journey Today for FREE: https://www.emmaclaytonxo.com/courses/hd-initiation

Subscribe to the video podcast and watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1Q8bQIq6BaPnRh5mht8E_Cxa8nn5SJ3Q

Connect with me & become part of the listener community on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmaclayton.xo/

Book your Game Plan here: https://www.emmaclaytonxo.com/courses/game-plan

Speaker 1:

This is the Modern Leader Way a podcast for corporate career women who want to feel good on their way to the top. I'm Emma Clayton and I'll be sharing with you tangible advice to help you stop sacrificing your soul in the name of success and experience more balance, confidence and fulfilment both in and out of work.

Speaker 2:

Hello and welcome back to the show. I am doing something a little different again this week. I hope you're keeping up with me. I actually featured on a podcast of someone else's recently the wonderful Bijal Shah, who is an ex-head teacher, now leadership coach, and she has the Think Link Lead podcast and she had me on and I just thought what the question she asked and what she pulled out of me in that conversation was. I guess what you don't normally get from a normal conversation with me on my own podcast. So, with her blessing, I am sharing with you that conversation. Go check out her podcast, as there's many other amazing conversations with leaders around, the whole conversation about leadership and all the links for that will be in the show notes and I hope you enjoy this one. It's a little bit of a different take. You see me from being on the receiving end of the interviews rather than being the one asking the questions. So grab that cuppa, sit back, relax and enjoy.

Speaker 3:

Welcome to the ThinkLink Lead podcast, a place where you can enhance your leadership knowledge and skills. Each episode features insights from guests who are industry experts. Some of them are also LinkedIn top voices and TEDx speakers. The aim of the game on this podcast is to help you to lead successfully so you can continue driving impactful change in this new paradigm of leadership. I'm Bijal. I'm your host. I'm a former head teacher with a background in HR. I've led teams and projects in the UK and internationally. I truly believe leadership is a profound honour and responsibility. Whether you're a new leader or C-suite executive, you have the power, the status and the influence to create change, to impact people, productivity and results. Look, the universe has chosen you to serve and the ThinkLink Lead podcast is here to support you on this remarkable journey. So let's get into it.

Speaker 3:

My guest today is Emma Clayton the wonderful Emma Clayton. Now Emma is a leadership and transition coach. She's also a confidant to CEOs and executive leaders globally. She is the founder of Emma Clayton Coaching, so we can check that out a little bit later and I'll put the links in the show notes. She's also the creator of a wonderful movement. Check out the name of this movement the Modern Lead Her Way Movement. It's so popular that she's actually even got a podcast with the same name, the Modern Lead Her Way movement. It's so popular that she's actually even got a podcast with the same name, the Modern Lead Her Way movement, and it's available on Apple and Spotify, and I will also put the links on there as well. So, Emma, welcome to the Think Link Lead podcast. How are you doing today?

Speaker 2:

Hello, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction and I'm so happy to be here, so thanks for having me. I'm doing great. Hello, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction and I'm so happy to be here, so thanks for having me. I'm doing great, thank you.

Speaker 3:

Oh, it's so wonderful to have you here. I mean, when I met you, we connected because we have a mutual love for the human design system. And what I love about you, emma, is that you're a little bit like me, and this is why we resonate is that we use human design not as our main everything, but as a tool to enhance other things that we do. Right, absolutely yeah, and we're going to talk about that a little bit later on. So look, emma, let's get into it. Tell us a little bit about your background and your experience.

Speaker 2:

Sure so I guess, if we roll it back, I left school at 18 and and kind of stumbled on this admin job. I just knew I wanted to earn money. I didn't want to go to university and I started in this global reinsurance company and kind of worked myself, worked my way around and up in the organisation in a non kind of linear, non-traditional way really. So I went from like an admin role into a technical role and then I went into a sales front end role. Then I got into projects management. Leadership was kind of like the main theme throughout my career and I was there for 20 years which was never expecting but did quite well, loved my job and got to the pinnacle of my career where I was a director level, head of strategy and operations for a really exciting digital analytics team that were at the coalface of tech startups and like the disruptors of our industry and I had my six figure salary and I had my car allowance and I had my big bonuses that were bigger than a lot of people's salaries in a year and I was just like, is this all it's cracked up to be? I kind of had that like impending doom where I was like, oh, I don't, I don't know. Something didn't feel good and it was around the same sort of time that I was exploring the whole kind of personal development world and starting to explore like what it was that I wanted to do with my work in the world. And I was also faced with redundancy at this time and whilst at one time in my life I would have thought redundancy was like the worst case scenario, I kind of really embraced it as an opportunity to look at all the things I loved about the work I had done over the last 20 years in that corporate space and see what I could do if I spread my wings and went at it alone.

Speaker 2:

And for me it always comes back to. I loved the people side of things. I was always a mentor, like people would seek me out and ask if I could be their mentor and I always had big teams. So I loved the people side of things.

Speaker 2:

I was a very natural coach and mentor and I had also been on this personal journey right where I'd come up against imposter syndrome on my journey up the leadership career path self-doubt, anxiety, all those things and yet I still appeared very confident, very able and capable and obviously did a good job to continue to get the obviously did a good job to continue to get the opportunities. So I just knew I wanted to kind of crack that nut of why I felt like that yet was still performing at that high level. And it was only when I left, actually, and started talking more openly about this on the likes of LinkedIn, that more and more women came forward and said, yeah, it's not just you and. And so it kind of lit a fire up my backside and I have been kind of doing this work ever since that's I'm nearly seven and a half years in now so since I left that world. So that led me to here.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so redundancy is redirection. That's how you saw it. Yeah, redundancy is redirection, that's how you saw it.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Someone said like she said, you've got the best redundancy story ever. And I think it's because people kind of you sort of say, oh, I'm being made redundant, and people kind of go, oh, like it is the worst thing that could happen. And actually I never saw it like like that. I saw it as my launch pads to really go into that next chapter of my life where, you know, at one point I thought I was going to be employed forever and here I was going. Well, I could, I could get another job doing this, or I could go and like literally explore what it is that I am meant to be doing in this lifetime. Now I've got all these kind of skills and this life experience behind me.

Speaker 3:

I mean, you hear that happening quite a lot now where people are being made redundant and it's really causing some stress because, you know, the world seems to be going to a model where they want less employees and they want more self-employed people to be contractors. Um, you know, some of them consistent, some of them not so consistent, and you can see why. Because then they don't have to. You know, employees don't have to pay your own costs and they don't have to pay your, and all of that. But this is a really wonderful redundancy story. I mean, it really is awesome, because if you get made redundant, you really are down in the dumps, but you absolutely saw this as a opportunity. Do you know? Do you think this is down to who you are or do you think it's who you became? Natural progression? Is this how you would have maybe reacted? Uh, prior to a journey on self-development?

Speaker 2:

yeah, it's. It's a good question, because I surprised myself by my reaction because, like I said I had, I had grown up from my parents believing that you know the best thing you can do is get that job for life, get that job security, pay into a pension, get paid more every year. And you know, the best thing you can do is get that job for life, get that job security, pay into a pension, get paid more every year and, you know, at one point you'll be able to have a nice retirement. And my, my parents did exactly that and they're enjoying their retirement now. They're in tennery for five, five or six weeks in the winter, which is wonderful.

Speaker 2:

But I kind of never felt like that was my real journey. And I think it was later on, in those kind of the last few years, that I was really questioning why I was doing what I was doing. Because, yes, I was a high achiever and, yes, I always wanted to get the next promotion and the next pay rise. But it's like what for? Was it really for this like elusive retirement date in the future where I could actually enjoy the fruits of my labour? And so, yeah, this getting on this sort of personal development path. And don't get me wrong, the reason I found myself on that was because it was actually a leadership development programme that I was in where one of the facilitators very skilfully picked up on the fact that there was more going on beneath the surface for me than I was letting on. And so we were in these simulations, these role plays, and I was cast as the CEO, which I always seem to get, and you know I was very good at reading the room. I would say I was emotionally intelligent in that sense I could tell so and so over there wasn't really happy, even if that's what they're not saying, and I could like really get a sense of what needed to happen. But I didn't have I didn't always have the, the confidence to say what I was thinking.

Speaker 2:

And she really picked up on this. So she was really like astute to what was going on for me, like behind my eyes I guess, and she kind of took the time out to sort of explore that and I actually got quite emotional and she recommended my first self-help help book off of the self-help shelf which was called taming your gremlin and it was just like in that and it's as it sounds, it's got lots of gremlin pictures, sort of really badly drawn throughout the book, but it's. It was actually that first moment you know where you go. Oh god, maybe I'm not. I'm not crazy, like there is and actually, as this resonates, I can go. Oh, maybe it's not just me.

Speaker 2:

And so I did start on that kind of path because I wanted to explore this, I wanted to unpick it, I wanted to understand where it all come from and I wanted to improve it. I didn't want to be going through my career always feeling like I perhaps had been faking it and didn't belong. And so, yeah, that I think the work I'd been doing around that was enough, so that I had started to challenge those beliefs. You know that my parents kind of values around financial security and job security for life, kind of values around financial security and job security for life. I'd started to go. Maybe it's not actually that important to me and it's more important to me that I go, discover my best self, if you like at the time, and and see what else I can do, see what I'm made up of wow, what a journey.

Speaker 3:

See what you're made up of, go and be your best self. It truly is inspirational. So look, emma, you've created this wonderful movement. It's called the modern lead her way movement. So what inspired this?

Speaker 2:

tell us a little bit more about that, yes, I think in the in the years after I'd left and was starting to work with women that were coming forward and and were showing similar kind of challenges and struggles but also similar, you know, they aspired to be their best self I was just like really intrigued. So I've gone deeper and deeper into this and for me what it comes back to is so the Modern Leader way is yeah, like you said, it's the movement, it's the name of my podcast, and the Modern Leader identity, if you like, is someone that she knows, likes and trusts herself for one. So I didn't know myself until I started on that kind of self-discovery journey. I certainly didn't like myself, like a lot of my like deeply rooted kind of challenges came up from, you know, just going through childhood as a gymnast in a bigger body and being exposed and then being bullied at school and all the things. So I didn't, I didn't actually have a great relationship with my body, what I saw in the mirror, and I certainly didn't trust myself to make big decisions like you know, take the redundancy and and go do something different.

Speaker 2:

So the modern leader identity she first knows, likes and trusts herself. It's kind of like that, that brand. She's smart, she's self-aware, she knows what shaped her and who she is, but, more importantly, who she's not and what makes her unique, what she values, what she dreams of, who she's becoming. It's kind of like that whole piece there. She also leads herself first, and I think this was another thing with me was seeing a lot of the time we hear leaders sort of spitting out, preaching and we don't see them actually walking the talk. So for me, it's very much the modern leader. She leads herself first. So she's doing the work behind the behind closed doors, she's being honest about who she's being when no one's watching, and where she has to grow, she's aware of it and she's. She's walking the talk. Walking the walk, talking the talk, um, and another part of the modern leader identity is that she brings her whole self to the table. So she's put down that mask I call a fake confidence and this need to appear to be perfect in favor of keeping it real.

Speaker 2:

I'm all about authenticity being real, um, because it gives others the permission to be the same right. And then, and then she also leads in her own way, and I think this comes from the fact that we, when we step into someone else's shoes. When we take that promotion, we look at how it was done before and we almost model ourselves on how it's been done before. And actually we we don't need that in leadership. We need like we need the uniqueness that comes with the person bringing their their way right. So, rather than stepping into your predecessor's shoes, it's bringing out your own unique style, your own experience, your own knowledge and character to the role.

Speaker 2:

And this is all because I believe the traditional leadership model is just outdated. It's very masculine in its approach. It's made historically by men for men. You know, it's only in the last 50 years that you see women in leadership in corporate and it's only really in the last 20 years that we're seeing them really step up at that senior level and not just be in PA roles and HR roles. This is really a modern day thing, mind. The modern leader way is all about, um, yeah, just bringing that more feminine approach to a very masculine environment, because I think that's gonna shift the needle in terms of how our employees feel, how our teams feel, how our customers feel, um, in dealing with the company as a whole amazing, I mean very clear, makes sense and very on point for the modern, evolving world, I would say.

Speaker 3:

And that movement is a very popular movement, so get on board. So, emma, why have you chosen to work with leaders? Why is that your audience?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think it's because, like when I think about this, the modern leader way and that modern leader identity that just kind of described, when we have more women that are leading from that place, from that real authentic place, that grounded in knowing who they are and trusting their decision making and they're bringing their whole self and not just sort of cherry picking the best bits, I do think we're going to see a shift in the workplace and I call it like the workplace balance rather than the work-life balance.

Speaker 2:

We talk a lot about work-life balance but actually in the workplace, if we go back to the fact that it's a very masculine environment still, you know, we're very much talking about the analytics and the goals and the um, the finances. When we can bring that kind of more feminine approach, when we can bring um the human touch right, the women do so well, I'm not saying men don't do it, but the more feminine of us bring that compassion, that emotional intelligence, that vulnerability. When we can bring that, we're going to address this workplace balance and that's what I think is going to make it a better place to work and a better business to do business with out in the world. And so I do believe it's the women leaders that are going to lead the way in that yeah, I mean it's different times.

Speaker 3:

We, we can all feel it can't be that vibe, that something's changing, like you know. We know when things have kind of evolved, but there is change in the end we're not all quite sure what's going on. But this is definitely the chaos before the calm, hopefully yeah, yeah has to be so my to you, emma, which I love to talk about, this is you are also a human design specialist, so I know this is a difficult question, but just very briefly, what is human design?

Speaker 2:

It is a difficult question, but the way I like to describe it is if everyone knows what MBTI is right. The the old personality profiling Myers-Briggs or something like that disc, team profiles, whatever.

Speaker 2:

I feel like human design is the next best thing since MBTI and I look at it as your unique operating manual. It's your how-to. If ever there was a blueprint for how you can best move through this life with the most energy and be the most attractive in doing so in terms of attracting opportunities and results and things like that, then human design is is your operating manual, so it's your how-to. And I also deal, um, I also kind of bring in gene keys, which is like the sister to human design, and, and gene keys is if. If human design is your how-to, the. The gene keys is the who, so it's like who you came here to be. So it is it. It is based on your birth data, precise time and date of birth, as you know, and that's where it gets a little bit more esoterical in terms of like where it pulls the data from. But honestly, when you draw your human design chart and you start looking into it, it is kind of freakish how undeniable it is it's undeniable, to the point where it's my guidance system.

Speaker 3:

If I'm ever stuck, if I ever want to make decisions, if I ever. I mean, it's not my everything, but it is a real go-to tool for me. If I'm just wanting to understand what should I do in my social media or how should I show up or got a decision to make, where is it? Where is it in my profile, or my gates, or something like that, that might help me to. You know, move forward, because that's what it is it's a navigation tool, it's a self-discovery tool, right? Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely so, with human design. Then how can it help with leadership alignment?

Speaker 2:

There's so many ways, I guess just to pull out a couple. At the high level there is, we have an inner decision making tool. I love this one. So mine is. I have an emotional authority. What's yours? Emotional as well? No, it's splenic authority. What's yours? Are you emotional as well? No, it's splenic, splenic. Okay, awesome. So we have different decision-making authorities, right.

Speaker 2:

So mine is emotional and that actually means I do not trust my emotions and I do not make those big decisions to leave a job and take redundancy when I'm in an emotional wave. But actually what I do is once I've been through that wave, I can let that inform my decision only once I return to, like that cool, calm, collected. So it really does help me know. Oh, I am in an emotional wave and therefore I need to at least sleep on it for one night before I do come back to see if I'm ready to make a decision. Come back to see if I'm ready to make a decision.

Speaker 2:

So decision making is like a key thing that, I think, is. Once you know it, you then get to practice it out in the real world, right? I think none with any of this, with anything in the self-development world, with the self-awareness. Self-awareness is the first point, but actually you get to do something with it then, and I think it's. But actually you get to do something with it then, and I think it's when you can take that out into the world and behave differently. That's when you get to see the benefits.

Speaker 2:

So decision making authority is one, your energy type is the other. Like I'm a manifester, so I am here to initiate and actually when I look back at my career, I was brilliant new project, give it to me, I will set it up, I will set the direction, I will get you moving.

Speaker 2:

Two weeks in and I'm, dare I say it, bored and like and I would see it through because I had to see it through, right, but actually my energy is such that I meant to, I meant to start, I'm not necessarily meant to see them through. So in that knowledge, in my business, I can have the support in place where I get to hand off those kind of longer term projects, so they actually get to be seen through and someone else who has the energy for that to build, for example can do that for me. So I think it's there are a couple of key points that I think really help with understanding who you are as a leader Amazing.

Speaker 3:

And again, you using it for yourself to help you navigate. So that is absolutely brilliant, especially in your own business. So you know you've talked a little bit about human design and how absolutely brilliant, especially in your own business. So you know you've talked a little bit about human design and how it's helped you in your sort of personal and professional life that you've just touched on it Anything else.

Speaker 2:

I think the biggest thing for me is it's helped me back to like understanding that you know I was living, but I was living out my parents kind of ideal career really, um, so actually, what human design does?

Speaker 2:

It kind of helps me understand the parts of me that were conditioned in me as a child, growing up in those really formative years, and then the parts of me that are most natural to me, like these are this is me and this is who I came here to be like.

Speaker 2:

This is how I came here to do things. So when you know that you can go, you can just make a decision. Right, okay, I'm gonna play in this, in these things, more um often and I'm gonna literally just switch my perspective on how I see some other things. And so it's just really helped me weed out some of those things that I was carrying, those things I thought I had to do, I should be doing, that were actually not my natural nature and actually, as a manifestor growing up with generate a generator family, three people in my house were generators and generators have a very different energy type to me. Um, just understanding that explains so much and I can like move on now. I don't need to like dwell in that, and so it's just really um, I think that's a big part of it. It's just helping to see clearly absolutely so.

Speaker 3:

it's really good that you talked about how different you felt, because you have a family of generators which have life force energy and you've got a different energy type. So, gosh, that must have been, that must have been really different. And you only know that. You only know that once, once you learned human design. Yeah, completely so. Emma, I read on your profile and you use these really wonderful words You're a confidant to CEOs and executives, so tell us a little bit more about this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I think what I found is when I worked at the high level with some of these leaders is they come looking for coaching and actually what they really need is just an outlet, someone, a safe space where they're not going to be judged, where they can say anything and get this stuff off their chest and like move through it and not have to take it home to their partner, to their families. And it might be because they don't have the peer group, the peer support in their company, their friends maybe don't understand their responsibilities, so it doesn't really land the same when they take it to you know friends on a Friday night drink session and it's just like, really, that what I hear the most is I've never told anyone this and and so for me it just kind of shifted in terms of like, yes, I can coach you and yes, I can switch into a mentor, because they are different things. And ultimately I am here to create this like real sense of safety for you to just bring your whole self to the table and not feel ashamed. And where there is shame, we'll have a look at where that came from and we'll nip that in the bud.

Speaker 2:

And I think that, to me is just it's proven to be where women can shift quicker and move forward and take more aligned action when they can actually be held in this vulnerability that you know, we all have a need to be held in our vulnerability and sometimes in our emotions as well, and I know that's a big scary kind of concept for a lot of women.

Speaker 2:

Like a lot of women, when they first start working with me, are like I am not, I do not cry, I am not emotional and gently does it. But you know, true emotional intelligence, which is one of the leadership qualities that we want as a female. It starts with intelligence around our own emotions and until we can be like, truly able to be and in touch with what our body is telling us, which is what emotions are right, our body is kind of giving us some information here. Um, yeah, we can't say we're truly emotionally intelligent until we've we've sort of nailed that really. So it's just creating that kind of um support, that real support that they might not they might get in pockets in different places, but they have to go to many different places to get it where they can just come to our container that we create and anything goes I mean I love this because this actually lends itself to my next question, because you say they often come for coaching but they want something else.

Speaker 3:

So it turns into you being a confidant and actually you talk about this concept of the mask. So what can someone expect when they're working with you and when they kind of like drop this professional and sort of personal mask that they have? You know how can they do this, like what impact can it have on them?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I kind of touched on this in my own kind of experience. I think it starts with the awareness that there is a mask that you're wearing. And how do you know you're wearing a mask? I would say it doesn't always feel good, right? So it might be that you're saying yes to yet another opportunity that scares the shit out of you, um, or you're um, you said something, came out of your mouth, and then you're going like, why did I say that? Like that, that's not even me, um, so I think we know, but we don't necessarily have the language to sort of put a finger on what's going on. So I call it the mask of fake confidence, because you know, I know that.

Speaker 2:

Well, one of the things that people would say to me when I first left and started talking about you know the anxiety that I was experiencing on the inside when I was showing up in my role is I had no idea you felt like that because you just came across like this, super confident together, like all the things, and so the so the first thing is like it, you don't feel good when you leave the room, when you've said the thing, um, or you've you've left things on the table, right, you've, you've been thinking, you've had an idea or you've had something that you want to interject with and you don't because you've held yourself back. So, yeah, the first thing is awareness and then, like, there is a bit of deconstruction. That's required, I think, when you can acknowledge where it comes from, like, where this like need to come across as being perfect comes from, or where this where you're why you're silencing yourself. You know, for me, I had, like I love my dad dearly, but he was a force of nature, like we've already said, he is a generator type, so he had this big energy compared to me, but he was, he was always right and he always had the last word and you didn't argue with him. And so, you know, as a child, I would just shut up, I just wouldn't say the thing, because it was just easier to not argue or to not ask why. And you know, this then plays out in your later life, it plays out in school, it played out in relationships, it played out in work. So, you know, just knowing that, just deconstructing it in that way can really help, and then it's.

Speaker 2:

I think, when you know, when you have that awareness and you've deconstructed it, you get to choose right. Who are you going to be moving forward? And it's a big part of it is who are you being in the doing? So we put ourselves back in the room with the awareness that we have that we're trying to keep ourselves quiet and not say the um, not say the idea, not share, share. The thing is we actually share the thing and we realize that nothing, nobody dies, nothing bad happens, and we can come back and we can like okay, what else was going on? And in, in that experimental kind of energy, we move forward and we just like learn, to try on a new way of being, which takes time in some cases and is as simple as just deciding that you're no longer going to be that version of you.

Speaker 3:

So I'm seeing a lot of identity work actually happening with you. You know, and I like the fact that you said learn, learn to be, learn how to be a different sort of way of being. So that is, that's a penny dropping moment, because, you know, when you do embark on a journey, utilizing a mentor, a coach, confidant, et cetera, these are some of the things that people can expect, those penny dropping moments. So, part of this identity. You also talk about reflection and you talk about quiet time. So how important is quiet time for developing this identity then?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think time for introspection and reflection is great, and I'm a natural reflector. You'll find me at the end of the month, at the end of the quarter, looking back, just reflecting, and sometimes we want to let some crap go right that we've been carrying with us and sometimes we want to actually give ourselves a pat on the back for the great right that we've been carrying with us and sometimes we want to actually give ourselves a pat on the back for the great work that we've been doing, because, like this can go unnoticed, sometimes before we know it, or at the end of the year, um. So I think that time out for that piece is really key and, like some of that deconstruction stuff, it does require you to potentially look back. But the real development I find of your true identity is, as I said, it's like it happens in the who you're being in the doing. So it's like when you're out in the field, if you like you're, who are you being?

Speaker 2:

In that meeting, in that conversation? You know who are you being today versus who you have been in the past, and I think it's only when you get to look back that you go oh, actually, yeah, I, I stepped up in that occasion, or I felt different in that situation because of this, and when you can add up that evidence to all the great work that you've been doing, it just helps, I think, expedite that kind of journey of like becoming that version of you that you were designed to be and you actually help groups of women with this as well, because you've got a wonderful retreat and it's called the time out retreat, so tell us a little bit more more about this.

Speaker 3:

Have you got any coming?

Speaker 2:

up. Uh yeah, so the next one's actually on the 22nd of March, so it's soon. These are beautiful. I have been longing. We were talking, actually before we hit the record button, about our four line in our profile in human design. We both have that and that's this network.

Speaker 2:

We get a lot of our opportunities from just being out in our network opportunities from just being out in our network and for me, whilst the last seven years have been predominantly online, I am craving that in-person touch and I just decided that it was a long time coming but I wanted to bring back in-person kind of workshops, retreats. I used to do them in the early days and then Covid hit so that that didn't happen for a while. But the time out retreat. I actually used my sister's home in Margate on the beach for the first couple and it's just such a beautiful spot, looks out over the sea we can go for a nice beach walk at lunchtime.

Speaker 2:

But the idea is really the premise is you step out of the chaos of day-to-day life and leave your kind of stuff at the door and just step into the calm and just take that quality time out for yourself to do that introspection work, to reflect, to look forward and to like remember what's really important to you and what we do in that day is like I talk about getting us out of our heads where we spend the majority of our time.

Speaker 2:

Right, I almost joke that we walk around as a society cut off from the neck down.

Speaker 2:

We're up in our heads with our to-do lists and, like our thoughts are like all consuming at times and actually what we want to do is give ourselves, give our nervous system, that opportunity to rest, like truly rest, and I don't mean scrolling on your phone with a glass of wine in front of netflix in the evening, but actually switch off that stress state that we walk around in and like just drop into our bodies, really ground into the here and now, and from that place you know, you find you actually can think a lot clearer. So, yeah, I've really enjoyed hosting those days and I've got plans for them this year to be a bit more strategic in some places. So time out strategy days, time out um uh workshops where we actually come together. When we do something, we work on something specific, whether that's ident, leadership identity or um, the drop in the mask or whatever it is. So, yeah, it's a really beautiful space and I'm I'm very proud of um the space that I've created there.

Speaker 3:

Wow, so are they like day retreats then?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so day retreat with an option to stay overnight, and then, unfortunately, because I've been holding it at my sister's house, they're selling, so the March one will be the last one at that venue and then I'll be looking for a new venue. But yeah, the idea is that you know you can, you can be taken care of for that period of time, whether it's just a day or whether it's overnight, and that's very much been the feedback is that very rarely do I take that time out for myself and very rarely do I feel so taken care of.

Speaker 3:

I love it and are things included like food?

Speaker 2:

Yep, we have some lovely it's all home cooked, all like really nutritious, delicious, healthy foods to keep your energy levels going throughout the day, and there's a lot. I'm a big nature lover, so we get out, we get in the fresh the air, we get our feet in the sand, maybe even the sea, even though it's um freezing at the moment. Um, and for those that stay, we've got a hot tub there, but we also go out to the beach and we do a sauna and cold plunge, so we get the full experience. Um, but yeah, it's great oh wow.

Speaker 3:

So treat yourself. Treat yourself to one of these days. It's a day you could be home by evening, if you want absolutely, yeah, right, yeah you know, and they say, a moment can change your life forever.

Speaker 3:

So this could be a real penny dropping day. Everybody. It's very inspirational. There's been some really positive feedback about that, so I will will put the links to the timeout retreat in the show notes as well. Look, you know, emma, let's talk about now leaders and leaders transitioning into different leadership roles, because it is different. You know, you go from being quite a like new leader to like a middle leader, senior leader. You know and, and you know you, you go off to be quite, you know, different in those roles and you work with leaders. So what are some of the main issues that they have when they're transitioning between these leadership roles?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's. It's one of those where you find yourself at the sort of top of your game and you know, maybe you've been in your role for two, three, four years and you feel ready for that next level and and then you go through an interview process and you get offered the job and then for a lot of women not everyone, of course, but for a lot of women then all this self-doubt starts to come in, like, am I actually cut out for this? And that's where I think some imposter syndrome comes in. I think, as women as well, we think about who didn't get the job, who we're up against that might not have got it, that might still be around and very much involved, and like what are they gonna think? And what I see happening most is that all of a sudden they feel like they have to this, they have this pressure to perform and they have to prove that they're worthy of the role.

Speaker 2:

And actually my message is always you went through an interview process, you were up against peers and you were.

Speaker 2:

You were chosen as the one that was ready to step up into this role. So take that pressure off, needing to perform in those early days, and actually allow yourself to be new, because it might be that you're in a new department, a new market, whatever it is um and really like, capitalize on the fact that you get to ask the questions in the early days and that's okay because you're new. So I think, yeah, this it's just really fascinating to see how quickly that self-doubt can come in, even though it's almost like you've finished celebrating the good news that you've got the job, and then the reality hits. Um, so I think that's the biggest thing, that. And then the reality hits. So I think that's the biggest thing that I see in that transition phase and I think it happens, you know, when you're transitioning into your first leadership role and then when it, when you're stepping up and you're given that next level and so on, and I don't know if it stops. But yeah, there are. There are ways that we can.

Speaker 3:

We can work with that hmm, okay, so look, let's let's have a conversation now about the future of leadership. Right, you're very much in the know-how. You work with leaders day in, day out, globally. You know you've got lots and lots of women as well. So what do you think the future of leadership is going to look like?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I kind of touched on this earlier because I do think it is is how I describe the modern leader way. So I do think it's got to bring in more about. It's got to be more human right right, the future is definitely more human.

Speaker 2:

I think we've lost the human touch in a lot of places. And look, I worked in a company. It was a Swiss company, very, very polite, right. So it was a really nice place to work. Everyone really was nice and polite. A lot of the conversations were painstaking because everyone wanted to make sure everyone was happy, right, and a lot of cultures aren't like that necessarily. So I had I had a good growing up in the organisation I did.

Speaker 2:

But you know, with that comes some other challenges in that it becomes quite passive, aggressive in some situations when people really want to get what they want, and I just think we've lost that real huge like authentic human touch. And so I do think there's gonna, there needs to be more authenticity because I think, especially the younger generations moving into the workplace, they have big BS radars and and I think they're gonna call it, they're gonna call people out more often that there is um an expectation that you know, um, people are being more honest and open, and I think, um, that has it has to start with our leadership being more open, more vulnerable, more compassionate, more emotionally intelligent, more human. I would say yeah.

Speaker 3:

I like that and I do think we are moving towards that as well. So it'll be really interesting to know your thoughts, listeners. What do you think the future of leadership is looking like? You know, we can all have different perspectives on that and learn from each other. Okay, look, emma, we talked about leadership. We've talked about human design, we've talked about the human touch. You know, we've talked about the mask and so many other things. So that lends me to my next question, because it does naturally flow is do you think that leaders are just a little bit more open to like spiritual practice now?

Speaker 2:

I would say open to it, yes, are they ready to deepen into it? I don't think it's a priority unless they're finding something that they really connect with, like you know, a yoga class or a meditation app or you know something that really gets piques their interest. Um, so I'm not sure they're likely to go down rabbit holes, like perhaps I might have done, since I've left the workplace and you know this stuff is. It's perhaps a little bit more accessible because you know we're in the work that I'm doing. Now. I'm looking at different modalities and tools and things like that that I can bring into my work, but I think so, yes, I'm definitely seeing an openness to it. Like so, yes, I'm definitely seeing an openness to it. Like I. It generally takes me to work with someone a couple of times and I'm I'm dying to know what their human design says about them, um, and I'll say, oh, um, are you interested in this?

Speaker 2:

yeah, give me your um birth data and I can run a chart and I can tell her about a chart. And she's like, oh, wow, yeah, spot on. But will she then go and take the next step to look into it further? I just I don't think we're quite there yet. Um, it has to really pique her interest, I think. But the good thing about working with the likes of you or I is we don't need them to really understand it because we can say, oh, so in this scenario, in your human design chart, it tells us this about you. So what if we experiment here? So it just gives us a. You know, we don't have to lead with it, but we can. We can bring it in and and then send them. Send them on their way, actually experimenting without even knowing they might be experimenting in that area, and then they might be more interested to deepen into it. But I just think it's in a busy world that these women are working in. It's perhaps not that priority.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, and maybe it will become a little bit more as a priority as we evolve after 2027,. Hey, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And wouldn't it be great if MBTI was replaced with human design in corporate? I mean, that might be a little bit too far out there, but that's something that I'm holding on to the vision of.

Speaker 3:

Never say never, emma. Indeed that I'm holding on to the vision of Never say never, Emma, never say never. So we talk about 2027 listeners because in the human design system they talk about a transitional point in the world 2027. So, just so you can get some context around that and you can look more deeply into that by visiting my website, thinklinklycom, and I've got a human design page or you can just google it, so do have a look. So, emma, you've told us that you've got the retreat coming up the time out retreat. What other exciting things have you got coming up?

Speaker 2:

yeah, so I'm actually running a series of focus groups in March, during March, so it's probably not too late at this point to get in on one of those. I'm looking at women that are transitioning at those various points. So, whether that's into your first leadership role and really looking to build that leadership confidence, or you're kind of ready for that next level up, or indeed you've left corporate more recently or are leaving due to redundancy. So I've got three focus groups going on and in exchange for the ladies that are in there for their openness and honesty and answering some of the questions that I have to pose to them, I am giving them some coaching and mentoring in return. So that's exciting because I get like I love just getting people in the room and having these conversations, um, so that's happening.

Speaker 2:

I've got my podcast. Um, I've just come out of a, a series where we've been talking about reclaiming your voice and in the, in the corporate world, in the workplace, and we're moving into a series at the moment around like taking that real time out and giving your nervous system that reset. And then we're moving into a totally different theme around money and wealth generation for the future. So that's exciting. And then in the second half of this year, I'm actually gonna launch something that has been on my heart for so long, and it's what I'm calling Next Generation, or Next Gen, and it's the Modern Leadership Development Program. So I'm very excited about that.

Speaker 3:

All this initiation going on with the management here.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, how exciting. All right, Emma, so you have dropped some gems today on the Think Link Lead podcast. All right, emma, so you have dropped some gems today on the Think Link Lead podcast. Lots and lots of you know, items for us to reflect upon and our leadership, even our spirituality as well personal identity, professional identity and, most of all, leadership and learning. So, emma, all the guests on the Think Link Lead podcast, I asked them some questions, two questions, because you know I like, I'm a little bit nosy, I like to know things and I like a quote as well. So my question to you, my two questions, are who is your leadership role model and what's your favourite leadership quote?

Speaker 2:

This is so hard to answer? I think purely because and maybe this is back to my manifest energy right, the initiation energy but I don't have one leadership role model. It is always changing and I think in work, when I was in the corporate world, I definitely looked to certain female leaders that I felt were just different, doing things differently. That stood out because they weren't the same as everyone else, and you know, I was very much focused in my organisation. As soon as I left, I looked to many different entrepreneurs. I think it depends on where I'm at in my journey. For example, right now and I mean like in the last 48 hours hours, I am looking to Alex Hormozy, which, who isn't always that popular, but actually because he's like, my word for this year is focus. I want to get really focused, which is why I'm running some focus groups, um, and he talks my sort of language around focus, and so I'm choosing to listen to what he has to say about focus, and I'm sure that will change next time my focus changes, um. So, yeah, it's always.

Speaker 2:

I think what I look for in a role model is are they really embodied in what they teach and preach? And if they are, then I want to listen to what they have to say, um. So yeah, it doesn't really answer your question because I don't have one, but it does change, chop and change um over time and I have. So I have many um. And then the leadership quote again is so hard. There are so many there, but I think the ones I keep coming back to are very kind of identity driven. So Brené Brown I love a lot of her work and she has one quote in particular. That's let go of who you think you're supposed to be and embrace who you truly are, or something along those lines.

Speaker 2:

And I feel like that really reflects what I sort of subscribe to.

Speaker 3:

Amazing. I love that quote. I'm sorry to look down, so you know I have to like clock up the quotes for inspiration. So thanks for that, Emma. All right, so I will put down in the show notes how people can get in touch with you. But what is just the best way?

Speaker 2:

Probably LinkedIn. I'm Emma Clayton Coach, and then you can find the modern leader way podcast on all your favorite listening platforms and youtube and I will link all of those in the show notes as well.

Speaker 3:

Amazing, you've been a fantastic guest today. Have you enjoyed yourself?

Speaker 2:

I have. Thank you so much. I love talking about this stuff. I'm super passionate, um. So, yeah, thank you for um all your amazing questions and for doing this work with your podcast and that wraps up this episode of the think link lead podcast.

Speaker 3:

I hope you've enjoyed the discussion today and gained some valuable insights and key takeaways for your own leadership journey. Remember, this podcast is for you, so feel free to reach out to me with your thoughts, your questions, your feedback or any suggestions for leadership topics that you would like me to cover. You can connect with me right here on LinkedIn. You can also email me at admin at thinklinkleadcom, or you can just visit my website, thinklinkleadcom. If you're enjoying this podcast, please show some love by following, subscribing, giving a five-star rating and leaving a review. Your support means so much to me and helps me to continue bringing you great content and awesome guests each week. Stay tuned for the next episode. Until then, keep learning, keep leading and have a wonderful week, thank you.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Emma Clayton

Host