[091] How to Network Without The Ick

Your host, Emma shares tangible advice for transforming networking anxiety into meaningful connections, offering strategies for both in-person and virtual events to help corporate leaders approach networking with confidence.
We cover,
• How to reframe networking as creating connections and building community rather than an awkward obligation
• Understand the biological and psychological reasons why networking feels uncomfortable for many people
• Set clear intentions by asking: how do I want to feel, what do I want to receive, and what am I bringing?
• Prepare your "vocal business card" - a brief introduction that flows naturally and prevents overthinking (courtesy of Dani Wallace)
• Have meaningful questions ready that go beyond small talk and show genuine interest
• Use deep breathing and power poses to regulate your nervous system before entering networking spaces
• Be the welcoming presence in the room - the person who smiles, makes eye contact, and includes others
• Remember you're not alone - most people feel some level of discomfort in networking situations
• Apply similar strategies to virtual networking by keeping your camera on and being willing to speak first
• Practice builds confidence - each networking event becomes easier with experience

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Chapters

• 0:00 What is Networking and Why It Matters
• 7:15 Why Networking Feels Uncomfortable
• 15:24 Setting Powerful Intentions Before You Arrive
• 17:07 Preparing Your Vocal Business Card
• 21:55 Practical In-Room Networking Strategies
• 27:36 Virtual Networking and Success Stories

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

This is the Modern Leader Way the podcast for corporate career women who want to feel good on their way to the top. I'm Emma Clayton and I'll be sharing with you tangible advice to help you stop sacrificing your soul in the name of success and experience more balance, confidence and fulfilment both in and out of work. Hello, welcome back to another episode of the modern leader way, where it's just me again talking to you today about networking the dreaded n-word and if you've ever spent more time in the toilets at a networking event than you have actually networking, then this one is for you, because I am no stranger to frequenting the toilets and not just through biological need, during these events. I spent many years, many networking events in the corporate world, hiding away in the toilets because it just felt unbearable to put myself in the room, and so I'm going to cover off why that happens, so that you can know that you're not alone if that is you, and I'm going to give you some tips and hinters as to what to do in the run-up to your next networking event, whether it's online or in person, and we're gonna get you feeling a little bit more sure of yourself and confident to be in that situation and get the best out of it. So what camp are you in? Do you love it? Do you hate it? Does it just give you a bit of the ick?

Speaker 1: 1:40

I think it's interesting just to think, like I often used to think. Well, our extroverts obviously just relish in this kind of awkward situation that the rest of us find ourselves in. But I don't think it has anything to do with introversion or extroversion, in the same way that actually confidence doesn't come from extroversion, there's this new word that I got introduced to, which is ambiversion. So this is people who, like me, relate to both being introverts and extroverts, like I always used to call myself, an introverted extrovert or an extroverted introvert, whichever way you want to call it, and apparently it's a thing. So, in the same way that actually an introvert can come across very confident and like genuinely confident I talk about true confidence, not that mask of fake you can be an introvert and be very genuinely confident. You can also be an introvert and be a very good networker. So I just want to lay that out there for you. But why is networking important? And I think networking just got such a bad rep? Because, you know, I conjure up images of someone walking around with canapes and people sipping on like expensive wine, and everyone formally dressed and there being no tables around, no chairs. So everyone kind of stood in this very sterile place and making very awkward introductions and then standing in little circles and not necessarily knowing when to break out or when to let someone else in, which kind of gives you a flavor for the kind of networking events I was exposed to in my career growing up.

Speaker 1: 3:15

I've also been in networking events since I left the corporate world that have also filled me with some dread and I guess what I've learned over the time is that you can make the best of these, especially if you're not being forced to be at one right. So a lot of the work situations you might find yourself at a conference, at a training event, at a I know, a community event of some description, a client event, and there just so happens to be this hour or so where you've got the networking. Then we now have like speed networking, like speed dating type of networking and stuff as well. So you might find yourself in that situation, unfortunately, because you just happen to be there, because you're at this event, or you might actually elect to go along to something that is industry kind of led. Or maybe it's because clients are going that you want to be there, or potential new clients are going that you want to be there. Maybe it's to do with something you've been studying professionally you know all these different situations why you might go to a networking event and you know let's just break it down what is networking? It's really. It's the the art of creating new connections and creating your community. And I think, when we can look at it that way, it just takes the weight out of it, because networking has such negative connotations for some not for everyone, but if we think about like, this is an opportunity to create new connections and build your community. And why might you want to do that? Well, you never know.

Speaker 1: 4:50

You might find yourself in a situation where you need help for something. Maybe it's in your personal life, you need an expert in an area, or you have a situation where you are really looking for a very niche advice from someone. You reach out to your community. These are people you've met before or you've connected with in some way. You have something in common and you get to reach out to them for that reason. It might be that, like me, for example, I was made redundant. I reached out to my network at that point and I let them know this is what's happening and this is what I'm doing next. So if you know of anyone that might be interested in this, then you know where I am. And it might also be that actually you've been made redundant or you you're at risk of redundancy and you want to get back into the workplace as soon as possible. So you pull on your community. You ask your community and your connections If they know of any opportunities for you then to put them your way. So having that community can be incredibly important and a prime place online for this.

Speaker 1: 5:57

Personally, I would say it's Facebook or Instagram, something like that, and professionally would be LinkedIn and even LinkedIn. These days it's got more of that personal kind of social media touch, even though you will have the LinkedIn police that say this is not a social media platform. This is a professional networking platform where you build connections, where you build communities, where you yeah, you're connecting with people all the time. You are seeing who their connections are and therefore you're like one step closer of being connected with them. So think of this in a LinkedIn kind of way. That is a networking platform and we're looking at building connections and community.

Speaker 1: 6:38

So why, then, is it so awkward for some people? Why is it something that fills some people with dread? Because it does and I resonate with that, even still to this day with some things and, like I just want you to know, it's actually quite a normal feeling because, as tribal beings, it was so important for us to be part of a tribe, to not be cast out, to not be rejected, and to be accepted, because then we were safe. There was no way we would have survived had we been pushed outside of the tribe and left to fend for ourselves. We literally wouldn't have survived back in the day. So there are very tribal reasons that you won't even be consciously aware of. They'll just be part of your makeup, part of what it means to be human. These are our ancestors that survived by being part of that tribe. Then, if we just think about this lifetime right, let's just bring it back to reality.

Speaker 1: 7:43

There are potentially many scenarios that you may have incurred in your past where walking into a group of people became unsafe, where walking into a group of people and not being accepted was a reality for you like think about how mean those kids are at school Like. I was subject to bullying in school not until I was about 11 or 12, but it got quite bad and you know there would be those instances where I would fear walking into a disco, for example. That shows you my age talking about a disco. You know, walk into a disco and there'll be the older kids there and a group of them and they all turn their backs on you and the embarrassment and the guilt and the shame that comes up and arises from being rejected from your peer group effectively is excruciatingly painful for the developing teenager in you, teenager in you. So there are many reasons why you may find it very uncomfortable to walk into a networking scenario. So please go easy on yourself. If you fall in the camp of it, you either hate it or it gives you the ick, because there are a multitude of reasons as to why you're feeling the ick while you're getting that visceral feedback from your body that says this isn't safe to walk into this environment. And there are a few things that I do that I'm happy to give you as things that you can do to prep for next time, to make your experience all that more bearable, if not enjoyable, all right.

Speaker 1: 9:21

One of the things we often do is we have an agenda enjoyable, all right. One of the things we often do is we have an agenda. We might be going to an event because a certain potential client, prospect client's going to be there and we want to seek them out and we want to speak to them and we want to schmooze them and we want to get in front of them and we want to potentially open a conversation. That might be one agenda that you have for being there. Another agenda might be that you want to meet as many people as possible that work for I don't know tech startups and therefore you'll go into this particular networking event to do just that to have interesting conversations, to get a finger on the pulse of what's out there, what's going. Similarly, you might not have an agenda. You might just be there by pure chance because you just happen to be at this event and now there's this networking opportunity. Oftentimes we can have an agenda, but we don't always have to have an agenda and actually you might find it takes the pressure off when you're not there to achieve a certain goal.

Speaker 1: 10:23

I like to look at my intentions going so if I know that there's going to be a network opportunity and I'm going to attend. What is my intention? And here's three questions for you to ponder these are the same three questions, actually that I ask my clients when we start working together, that I ask my retreat guests to start thinking about at the beginning of the day, and so it often like drives, our presence and our behavior in the, in the present moment, in the actual situation, because we've actually given it some intention. So the first question is how do I want to feel? So, if you imagine yourself before, during and after this networking opportunity, this opportunity to create new connections and a wider community, how do you want to feel? So that might be. You might want to feel relaxed, you might want to feel energised. You might want to feel excited. You might want to feel accepted, like you belong. So how do you want to feel? The second question is what do I want to receive? So how do you want to feel? The second question is what do I want to receive? So is that I want to receive 10 new business cards of people that I've never met before? No-transcript. Do you want to receive the business card of a prospect for client? Do you want to receive an introduction to a certain person, a specific person in the room. What do you want to receive? And then, finally, what are you bringing to the room?

Speaker 1: 11:50

I think this is really important, because we often go to these things thinking what we're going to get, aka the agenda, and now we're actually sinking into those softer intentions. I think it's like what are you bringing to the room? Are you bringing your empathetic, compassionate listening, your active listening? Are you bringing your contacts, your connections? Are you bringing your knowledge? Are you bringing your ideas? Are you just bringing your absolute 100 presence to the room? Are you bringing your openness, your honesty? So what are you bringing? So, how do you want to feel before, during and after? What do you want to receive while you're there? And what are you bringing to the room? Three intentions that I think are really, if anything, more important than the agenda, like your agenda, what you want to get from it.

Speaker 1: 12:44

Another good thing to do in the preparation that will help you kind of feel a little bit more comfortable with what to expect, because a lot of this fear that comes up, a lot of the anxiety and the nerves that come up, is because we're stepping into the unknown. Often right, we don't necessarily know everyone that's going to be there. Maybe we don't know anyone, we are a stranger in a room full of lots of people. It often helps if you have an idea of who's going to be there, even if it's not specific people. You can kind of know the companies that are going to be there, the kind of agenda they've been bringing themselves, the kind of conversations they've been in during the day.

Speaker 1: 13:18

If it was a longer event, have an idea of who's going to be in the room and if there is like a name list or something, a guest list, actually are there people on there that you want to seek out because you've actually wanted to meet them, you've actually wanted to connect with them, you're interested by them, you want to hear from them and have a conversation, like, just find those, circle them, go, have a little look online. Is there a photo of them? Would you recognize them in the room if you, if you saw them and just have that in your mind like it might it might be that you recognize a couple of names. They maybe they're people you haven't seen for ages and you want to seek them out in the room. Maybe you're very familiar with some people and you want to make sure that you connect with them beforehand and ask them if they want to go together with you. Right, that's another option as well.

Speaker 1: 14:01

Now the other thing to prepare this is something actually I like that, danny Wallace, who creates these big festoon events she shares with her audience. She calls it the vocal business card for the VBC and from a business owner's point of view, it's kind of like hi, my name is and I am a coach or whatever and I help corporate leaders who are looking to improve their confidence and presence and impact. So it's something like that. I think in a professional setting it gets to be so much more simple than that, but it really still is important, because how often do we get tripped up, you know, when we're going around the table and doing those awkward introductions at the beginning of a meeting. Um, how often do we trip ourselves up and get up in our head about what am I going to say when it comes around to me? And actually, when you do, you're not actually listening to anyone else's introductions because you've just been preparing yours in your head.

Speaker 1: 14:58

Well, if you can have your vocal business card, your vbc, like planned and rehearsed it in your head before the time you get to that meeting or before the time you get to that networking event. Then it just rolls off the tongue and all it needs to be is oh hi, pleased to meet you. My name is Emma Clayton and I'm a leadership confidence coach, and I'm here today because I attended the event and I wanted to see what interesting people I could meet something like that. But have that prepared so that you don't have to scrape the barrel for it when you get there and that you can actually be present when you're hearing their introduction as well, so that you're not like faffing and flapping about what you're going to say. You actually can be present and listen. So have your vocal business card ready and have a couple of questions.

Speaker 1: 15:48

Like we like very British typical thing to do is say what a beautiful day. I mean, what a beautiful day is today. I look like I have no clothes on. I do. I promise I'm supporting this dog walkers vest, suntan, so I'm trying my best to to do something with that when I'm at home and it's like this. So I've been working out in the balcony. I have come in to record this because it's rather hot out there, but isn't the weather an easy thing for us to talk about, but it is small talk.

Speaker 1: 16:21

So what if you had a couple of like powerful questions up your sleeve that you can ask the next person that you're actually genuinely interested in hearing the answer to? So I don't know, that might be what brings you here today, or what. What's something you've? Who's someone really interesting that you've met tonight? Or is there someone that you're hoping to meet tonight, because it might be that you know them already and you can do that introduction? Um, you can ask them what their intentions are, but have a couple of questions up your sleeve so that if it feels awkward and stale and like you're not getting anywhere, you can just pull them out and start a conversation that way. All right. So that's your preparation before you get to the day and that might help you alleviate some of those nerves.

Speaker 1: 17:06

Now, on the way in to the room and I am obviously talking about the in-person type of events, we will go on to the online ones as well but on the way in, you get to do a few things for yourself. That really just allows your body to relax into the situation. So, like I said earlier, we get this kind of fear, this anxiety, these nerves come up because we're walking into the unknown and that feels naturally scary. So it's perfectly normal if you start to get wobbly knees or shake or get a sweat on, like these are all things that would have happened for me get a dry mouth, need to go to the toilet just before you get there and then need to go to the toilet again and not just to hide from being in the awkward situation of a networking event. So these are all normal physiological reactions to the body being in this kind of fight or flight response, this fear, response from the unknown quantity that is the event that you're walking into. So there's a few things you can do when you're on your way. So let's just say you're commuting, you're driving, you're on the train, you're on the bus, you're walking to the event, whatever it is, you're on your own.

Speaker 1: 18:15

You get to take a couple of deep breaths in through the nose and let it out through the mouth and each time you suck it in, you're sucking it in further through your lungs all the way down to the bottom of your diaphragm where you're going to expand into your belly, like making these breaths longer, deeper, smoother and really exhaling, like exhaling all of that carbon monoxide out carbon dioxide monoxide what did I say? Co2 out. You want to expel all of that not so good gas out. It's almost more important than what you're breathing in. So breathe. This is like the most underrated nervous system regulating tool there ever would be, because we all have access to it. It's free, we can access it anytime and all we're doing is making something very unconscious that we do 24 seven and we don't think about it. So all we're doing is we're starting to think about it for a minute, because what we can do when we slow our breath down is we're just signaling to our body that it's safe to relax, that it's okay and it's going to calm those nerves. It's really going to help support your body and all those sensations that you're experiencing that you label anxiety or nerves. So breathe.

Speaker 1: 19:34

You can be visualizing, you know if you're on the train or something, you can close your eyes almost and just imagine yourself walking into the room, confident, engaging in conversation, making eye contact, smiling, actually having those really lovely conversations, making new connections, connecting with people on linkedin and having follow-up conversations and how you can imagine yourself, how you feel based on your intentions. Feeling. That way, you can imagine yourself receiving what it is that you said you want to receive. You can imagine yourself giving what it is that you said you want to give, what you're bringing. So those are things you can do in the run-up to it.

Speaker 1: 20:12

And the other thing when you get to the venue and you do want to make a little diversion to the toilet, bring in the power pose. You must have heard about the power pose up until now. Like imagine wonder woman. If you haven't, like she stood there with her fists, clenched hands on hips, chin up, shoulders back, tits out. You get the gist. Like it's a real powerful kind of stance where we're eyes up, we're not looking down, we're not cowered forward with our shoulders hunched over, making us small. We're actually making ourselves bigger, we're taking up space. And actually what this does is it doesn't just make us feel more strong, it actually sends chemical responses from the brain, the recourse in through the body. So it's actually going to reduce your cortisol, which is your stress hormone, which is the hormone that's running through your veins that's actually making you have a sweaty upper lip and making you your knees wobble. It's going to reduce cortisol and it's going to increase your testosterone levels, which are these kind of confidence feeling levels in the body, which is what we want. We want you to be able to walk in and feel confident, all right.

Speaker 1: 21:25

So there's a few things you can do, and the other thing that I would encourage you to do is decide before you go, especially if it's an evening thing, especially if you know there's going to be alcohol there do you want to drink or will you say no to the drink and take the soft drink option? And in the past I, historically, would have always said, said yes, I'll take the drink and I'll drink it really fast, because before long it's going to make me feel more comfortable, it's going to make me feel more relaxed. However, after my first drink, I often get sweaty, hot, I often get louder, I often get a bit looser in what I'm saying, a little bit more me right, perhaps a little bit too relaxed. So if it's in a professional environment, I might choose not to drink these days. Even if it's in a social capacity, I probably won't drink these days, purely because I just know what I'm like after a drink or two. And is that the version of me I want to portray, or is that just me, sort of just finding another way to numb out when I'm feeling these uncomfortable feelings.

Speaker 1: 22:35

So that's all the preparation you get to do, and I encourage you to try that on and practice it when you're in the room. This is quite simple. So you've done a lot of preparation. You've got your questions, you've got your like introductory little spiel, so you've kind of got in this state that you physically feel quite good in when you're in the room. Just remember I find this really helps me just remember you're not the only one that doesn't want to be there. Or maybe you would rather just be spending some time in the toilet, or would rather just the ground open up and swallow them whole. You're not going to be the only one.

Speaker 1: 23:10

Yes, there are going to be the natural born networkers that are just made to be working that room, but most people are not going to be in that situation if they're there on their own. They're also dreading that awkward first conversation and introduction. They're also running through their mind what their introduction, what their vbc, is going to be right. They're thinking, oh god, what do I say when I meet someone new? You've done all that preparation by this point, so be the person in the room with the smile on your face, with the eye contact that looks like the safe pair of hands that someone else is going to find themselves in. Be the person that goes up to the person standing on their own, you know, with their head down and both hands full with a glass of champagne and a canapé, hoping that no one talks to them. Be the person, the kind person that goes up to them and breaks the ice for them, makes the contact smiles at them.

Speaker 1: 24:05

If there is no one like that, then you might want to and everyone's already talking to each other you might want to to actually look around, scan the room for that person that you really wanted to see or meet when you're there, see if you can find them, see if you can make eye contact with them. And if not, you know most people at a networking event are very mindful that not everyone's comfortable at networking events and are very polite and professional and will open. If you know, if there's four of them huddled around and they see you approaching them, they're going to open the group to allow you in, to welcome you in. So don't be afraid of interrupting someone that's in a seems deep in a conversation or you know, you might not want to go to the loudest group that are raucously laughing and all seem like they know each other from years ago. But you know there will be those groups where they're very open to expanding their little huddle and letting new people in and you're prepared with your VBC, with your questions, um, to kind of just slip in nicely and then you get to do the same for other people. Right, if you're speaking to one or two other people and you see someone walking past that looks like a lone ranger just hoping someone's going to make eye contact with them, you get to bring them in. You get to open your circle and bring them in as well, so you get to pay it back in that sense.

Speaker 1: 25:25

There's other things you can do. When you're in the conversation with people and you're asking them your questions that you've already prepared, and that sounds like it's a bit false and a little bit over orchestrated, but it really does save the day. Sometimes it might be that you can ask them do you know so and so that's really on top of your list to go and meet, and it could be that you could ask them to make an introduction for you, and that's a great way of networking in the room I would always be looking to if I've enjoyed a conversation, if I feel like there's some synergy, if I feel like we've like connected, I might ask them oh, are you on LinkedIn? Let's connect, let's keep in touch and actually build that network out, build that community out through your connections on LinkedIn as well, so taking it from the room onto LinkedIn. So, yeah, there are a a few things that I would say and like it's OK.

Speaker 1: 26:14

I think if you get, if you exhaust yourself in this kind of very busy, oftentimes social environment, it's OK to go. Yeah, I kind of I've met my intentions, I've come what, I got what I came for, and now I'm going to leave and say your goodbyes, or not just slope off, but notice next time how much less time you spent in the toilet hiding because you just felt you've done the preparation to feel good in the room. And then you get to go through in your mind, well, how did I feel, what did I bring and what did I receive, and then, like, literally do a little reflection piece and there might be things in there that you want to do differently next time, and that's okay too. You get to learn from your experience. Right now.

Speaker 1: 27:01

That's very much focused on if you're in the room, and I would imagine, with budgets being less and less these days, with less and less travel since covid, a lot more of these networking events actually happen in online rooms on zoom, and I guess if you are the sort of person that likes to hide in the toilets at an in-person network event, then the the same same but different would be that you have your camera off, that you don't necessarily contribute, that you shy away and pretend you're not there with your microphone muted as well as your camera off when you get put into these little breakout rooms or you accidentally duck off at that moment moment that we were all broken out into those rooms again, the same things apply. You can do the same sort of preparation. You can be sitting there at your desk doing some deep breaths. You can be almost holding that power pose from a seated position. No one has to know. You know you're doing it. No one else has to know. Um, but be bold, put your, put your camera on, update your name to say what your vocal business card is. You don't even have to say it, like it's a point of interest. Then you can update it to Emma Clayton, leadership coach, modern leader way, podcast host, something like that. You know it gives it gives people that visual as well. And, yeah, I think there's an element of safety that comes in when there is like you're behind a screen. It can be more vulnerable when you do turn your camera on, but also, you're not. Again, you're not the only one. Right, it's a bit harder to make eye contact, but in these smaller breakout rooms that you often put into, it can be easier if there's three or four people to perhaps take the lead. You know, if other people look awkward, it could be that you step up and say I'll go first, I don't mind going first, and then you get it out the way as well. Right, I think, um, there's an element of that too. So there are a few things.

Speaker 1: 29:00

I actually went to um a networking event yesterday, which is why this came up. So it was my first kind of business related event. I've been to many corporate events, but this one was my first business related networking event and I was petrified and I went in and I had the shaky knees and I had sweaty upper lip and you know I was met by Samana Duran, who's just such a sweetie, who had open arms and a big hug to give me, made me feel instantly at home, introduced me to the person that she'd sat me next to and you know, it was a really beautiful lunch and I made a great contact. The lady that I sat next to became a good friend. I went and spoke at her event she was holding a couple of months later. She introduced, invited me to be there for that and I did a whole session on confidence. We were going into a semi-naked or we all had, I think. We had leggings and like a white vest top on. It was quite stripped back back, let's say that. So it's very much like how to step into your confidence power pose, breathing, all that kind of thing and and being part of the photo shoot as well.

Speaker 1: 30:21

And then I was a part of the TEDx folks and team at the time. I was actually the speaker lead, so I was sourcing speakers to be at our next event and I knew Sarah had a great cause that she was championing and I helped her apply for and get selected for speaking at our TEDx Folkestone event. So she got a TEDx talk out of it and I got to be part of her event and we went on. She came on my podcast a couple of times and we went on to collaborate in a couple of other ways as well. So you know, it really was a great event.

Speaker 1: 30:55

And yesterday I went to another Be your Own in London and just reflected on the fact that it was seven years ago that I went along to my first one, and how much different I feel now because I've been putting myself in the room, because I've been making myself uncomfortable, because I've been practicing my VVC, because I've been, you know, the, the one in the room, that is the, the person that's got a smile and is not afraid to make eye contact, because I'm I'm also looking for the person that's, you know, a little bit uncomfortable being there, because I know that we're going to make great connections and, um, yeah, just taking it from there. So I hope this was useful. If there's anything in this that came up for you that you thought was particularly useful and you want to share it with a colleague, with a friend, and then please do share the podcast wide and far. I hope it gets into many, many ears. And whilst you're here, as always, if you love the show, please do scroll down on apple. You can go back to the main podcast screen and scroll all the way down. You'll get to the star rating.

Speaker 1: 31:58

Give us five stars. Give us a review as well. I'd love to hear your comments. We are coming up for the two-year anniversary in july and we're also going to hit 100 episodes at that point as well. So I'm super excited to get to that and I want to really give a bit of a rah-rah to the show and really do it justice. So you leaving a review, you sharing it with your friends and your colleagues, is really how we get this out there wider and further. So thank you in advance for doing that.

Speaker 1: 32:27

Oh, actually, let me just talk about the next couple of guests that we've got planned for you. I'm super excited to have to be bringing the guest series back. So next week we have the wonderful Emma Astley, who is an insurance broker. She has her own insurance brokerage called Cover my Bubble, and it's all about ensuring that your family bubble is covered from the your pregnancy bump to your children, is covered from your pregnancy bump to your children, to the pair of you if you're in a partnership, to ensure that you're basically protected to the high heels should the worst happen, and she has got a very courageous story to tell as to why she's so passionate about helping families ensure that their bubbles are covered.

Speaker 1: 33:10

And then, the following week after that, we have Anna Smith, who is an awesome recruiter in insurance again bit of a theme here. I can't help it. It's from the background that I came from, so I make no apologies. I know a lot of women listening to this are also going to be from insurance, and some of you won't be, and that's absolutely fine as well. But I'm pretty sure you're going to find some parallels, for whatever industry you're in, through the conversation that we have about how it's currently a candidate's market Right and employers are very much meeting the demands of the right candidates, and so she's got some great tips and a great story about how she set up her business at 25 years old and now has four kids. She is really an inspiration to everyone, I think, so looking forward to having Anna on that's the following week. So, yeah, see you next week, and in the meantime, take care, thank you.