The Modern LeadHer Way

[100] Finding Balance After 30 Years of Success with CEO Russell Higginbotham

• Emma Clayton • Season 4 • Episode 100

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In this special milestone episode, I’m joined by Russell Higginbotham — an industry leader with over 30 years of global experience in reinsurance, spanning Japan, Australia, Europe and beyond.

Russell is not only the first man to join the podcast, but he’s also someone I’ve worked with and respected for years. We dive deep into his recent life and career transition - from executive leadership at Swiss Re to the reflective space of garden leave. This conversation explores:

  • The physical and emotional signs of burnout - and what slowing down really looks like
  • How to listen to your body (and your gut) when it’s time to pivot
  • Navigating redundancy with purpose, not panic
  • Why imposter syndrome doesn’t end at the top — and how to face it head-on
  • The power of your professional network in uncertain times

If you're feeling stuck, burnt out, or ready for something new — this is the episode you didn’t know you needed.

Don’t forget to follow and leave a review - and thank you for supporting us all the way to Episode 100!

Coming soon - the Success Roadmap!

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Emma Clayton:

This is the Modern Leader Way, the podcast for corporate career women who want to feel good on their way to the top. I'm Emma Clayton and I'll be sharing with you tangible advice to help you stop sacrificing your soul in the name of success and experience more balance, confidence and fulfilment both in and out of work. Hello and welcome back to the Modern Leader Way, where this is the 100th episode, and I have a very special guest with me today, because not only is this someone that I used to work with and hold in very high regard, but it's the first gentleman that I have invited onto the show. So welcome, russell Higginbotham.

Russell Higginbotham:

Well, I I'm deeply honoured, A to be your 100th guest and B to be your first guy on the show. That's amazing, Thank you.

Emma Clayton:

Oh, you're so welcome.

Emma Clayton:

I saw you post on LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago about something that was a deeply personal update that you wanted to share in terms of some essential life and career lessons that you had learned since leaving your latest role, and I just knew when I saw that I had to invite you on to have this conversation because it's so aligned with what I've been bringing to the podcast so far in terms of slowing down, listening to your body and bringing in some of that element of pause to make sure that you're actually on the right track for one, but also that you're not just pushing and forcing through on the sort of path that you forged for yourself, perhaps years ago.

Emma Clayton:

That may not actually be aligned with where you're going, moving forward. So I am deeply passionate about helping women, in particular, in insurance in particular, because that's where we come from to really get off that treadmill, to burnout, as I call it, and just get on their own path, whether that is in the same career that they're in at the moment or that takes a different turn. So I really wanted to have you on to have this conversation and I'm excited as to where this could go. So why don't you give us a bit of a background CV check, if you like of your 30 year career to date, and there will be listeners that come from insurance, but there will be many that don't. So, yeah, give us an intro.

Russell Higginbotham:

All right, no, no problem, I'll try and make it short and sweet. So I guess I've been in that sort of insurance reinsurance world my whole career. Not necessarily by design, but I went on a undergraduate training programme at the first insurance company. So literally when I went to university that was just to earn money in the summer holidays and to do some, get some work experience, that kind of thing. But I guess I found a I quite liked it, but but b it also meant that when I came out of university that was my experience and that was the direction I took. So I had a job with that company for a couple of years and then I, and then I decided to. You know, I wanted to work in london because london was the you know, a happening place in its huge reinsurance market. So I I got a job in london with uh, with Munich Re um, so the largest global reinsurer. So I was there for about three years, which is fantastic.

Russell Higginbotham:

And then I joined Swiss Re um, so that would have been in 94 um. I'm sure some listeners might not even been born then, right, but uh, yeah, so way back then, and I guess when I joined then my mindset was you know this is the next job. It's going to be the next three to five years. I'm going to learn something and then I'm going to going to move on. But actually, as it turned out, I never did, because every whatever it was three, four, five years another opportunity came and it was in Swiss Re's, a large global organization employs 15 16 000 people, and I guess my mindset was open to work and anywhere. I told well, I didn't sort of see the world as London or the UK. So in Swiss Re I ended up in 2002, I moved to Japan where I ran Swiss Re's life and health business, which then extended to Japan and Korea, and then in 2006, I moved down under to run Swiss Re's Australia and New Zealand business 2010,.

Russell Higginbotham:

So eight or nine years after I moved to Asia, I came back to the UK. Uh, the plan was to go for two years. It was ended up being eight or nine um, so I ran Swiss Re's UK business, um and then um, I think. Then, when we started to interact, I was running Swiss Re's life and health business globally, which was 2015. Then I ran swiss trees europe middle east africa region for only for a year, because I had to move to asia as something changed in swiss tree, so I moved out to uh to singapore in 2019 during during the covid years I was there, came back in uh 22 and and then I was running Swiss Re's. It was called a solutions business. It was where Swiss Re was trying to commercialize its IP and knowledge through data and software solutions.

Russell Higginbotham:

Until the end of last year, where I entered up. After just as I passed my 30-year anniversary, I entered up, it was decided I was going to leave Swiss Re. So I'm now in a, in a period of garden leave which I've never done before um, done many things in my life, but never been in a period of garden leave which actually is sort of just as interesting, refreshing and a learning opportunity in in different ways. So there we go. Probably too much detail, but no, that's the summary.

Emma Clayton:

I well, I lost track. I don't even think I knew you went back to um Asia actually in 2019, so that's after I left. But, um, some some parallels there as well. I mean, my career was nothing like yours, but I got made redundant just around the time as much of my 20 year anniversary at Swiss Re and um, and also, yeah, we we worked together in 2015 on the strategy 2020 exactly which felt like so far in the future and now feels like a long distant memory that we'd rather forget, right? Yeah?

Russell Higginbotham:

that was. That was a good, uh, that was a good strategy as well. I mean, I think the numbers, the numbers that we thought about, came to bear and a lot of the initiatives we put in there also came through. I was relatively recently hired a chief data officer type of role, and that was, I remember that was something we proposed way back, way back then. So you have these ideas. Sometimes they don't come around as quickly as you. You want them to, but when they do come you think oh, I remember that.

Emma Clayton:

Yeah, that's good Nice. So talk to us then about um, that period in January. Like was it a surprise to you that this kind of came to an end? Um, or was it something that you're very much involved in the discussion around and like, how did you, how did it feel?

Russell Higginbotham:

yeah, yeah, look, I mean, um, so this, I guess the thing that triggered there's been a lot of change at Swiss Re in the recent times, which is organizations go through that. So there was a new group CEO who's come in and you know, bringing his own thoughts, his own strategy. So the area that I was running came under review, as did a number of other areas. So I would say, relatively early in that piece it became clear to me that, you know, there was a strong likelihood that the role I was doing was no longer going to exist, which you know is a sort of a moment in time when you see that. And then you know you start to wonder what's going to happen, how's it going to be, how should I behave? And you know my view was well, what will happen will happen. You know that sort of it is what it is sort of approach. So I just did what I always did was best to do the best job for the company and for my colleagues and make sure that the review that we were doing was was good and was was solid. So when, when the actual kind of moment of discussion came, that was so that that was all happening in June, july, august, and then the moment of discussion was really around November time, so you know there's plenty of time to sort of think about it and contemplate what might come. But the final sort of the actual discussion was around then and I ended up leaving the organization at the well, I'm still technically employed but going on to garden leave at the from the 31st of December last year.

Russell Higginbotham:

So, yeah, so you know, I guess, when you everyone's different, you know, and you react in different ways to these things.

Russell Higginbotham:

I think for me 30 years in an organization is a very long time and you know I could have stayed until sort of, you know, retirement.

Russell Higginbotham:

But after moments of sort of thought and contemplation you think, well, actually it's better to stop somewhere when you're relatively still feeling fresh and energized and it gives you a chance to do other things. So I I think when this happens to people you know you would have had this as well, I, I guess, emma, you, you sort of there are moments where you say why me, what did I? What did I do wrong? What could I've done better? But I think you also have to, you get into a mode of just realising actually a lot of these things it's not personal, and it's just sometimes these things happen and for you and I to have kind of, you know, had good careers for 20 and 30 years is actually quite incredible in many ways. But then it's also incredible that then, you know, one door closes, another one opens. So I've come to sort of view it as a moment of serendipity, in a sense, and actually opening a door to a new chapter.

Emma Clayton:

Oh, I love that. And actually my most listened to or most downloaded episode on the podcast so far in 100 episodes was the one where I talked about my redundancy and I labeled it redundancy, risk or opportunity, because I think I had always thought it was probably the worst thing that could ever happen to me until it happened and then I was like actually, this is an opportunity for me to spread my wings and perhaps go and do some things, like apply my skills to things that perhaps I had never yeah myself doing because, like you said, we're like in it for life yeah, and look, I mean as a you know, whatever you want to call it CEO or head of a unit or whatever you know.

Russell Higginbotham:

I've had that not very nice experience of making a number of people redundant over the years and I always try to do it in a thoughtful, caring, because it is a traumatic period, particularly if it comes as a surprise. And you know of all those individuals I think you know again same thing it was nobody's particular fault.

Russell Higginbotham:

It's sort of higher level company decisions around cost or strategy or whatever, and I can't think of anyone that hasn't ended up eventually, either sooner or somewhat later, in in a better place, because good people will always thrive in you know in what the world has to offer, so that you know, once you've been an organization for 30 years, you tend to have a sort of defined view of what your universe looks like and actually suddenly that changes and you're in a much bigger universe and you know the things like your um, your network, kick into, kick into play. So you know, I guess a lesson I'd say to anyone listening to this is you know, I know we're going to talk about sort of health and so on, but my job um, and now he's working in another area which is really really interesting, and he said you were the first person that came to mind to see if, if I could sort of repay that uh time that you gave me. So you know, people, people are genuine, people are nice. So yeah, anyway yeah, no, no.

Emma Clayton:

It's a valid point because just before we hit record um, when you were asking how things were going, I said actually it's my network where my opportunities have come from, absolutely. And I've been gone for nearly eight years now and it's still that old network that keep coming up and I'm so glad and grateful that I had that approach for my career where I just took the time to nurture those relationships.

Russell Higginbotham:

Yeah.

Emma Clayton:

With no like. I didn't know this was going to be why I needed to, but it was just a genuine connection in me that wanted to create those relationships and nurture them. So so I think that's crucial, and I was going to say I only had to deliver the news about redundancies to a team once and it was probably the low point of my career. And I never wanted to do it again.

Emma Clayton:

So I don't envy anyone having to do that. And actually I think I made my boss's job way too easy when he came to give me the news, because I'd already made up my mind. I knew it was coming and kind of made my mind up.

Emma Clayton:

But it's not that smooth sailing for everyone and there is that emotional rollercoaster you go through. It's almost like I had a focus group that was running and they were all people that had been made redundant recently or were like in between jobs. And you know we were talking about the five. You know the five stages of grief.

Emma Clayton:

It's like there's the five stages of like job loss stages of grief. It's like there's the five stages of like job loss. Yeah, you do go through that rejection and even though you can logically like rationalize the fact that it's not personal when you win, it is like why me? And then you kind of come out the other end and you do, hopefully nine times out of ten, see it as an opportunity.

Russell Higginbotham:

So yeah, no, exactly. I mean you can't sort of fast track, though that I mean awareness means you can, you understand what's happening in your mind and you can work your way through it, but you can't skip stages and sort of jump to the end.

Emma Clayton:

So you, everyone has to go through that in their own, in their own way, for sure so talk to us about then what happened when you stopped, because this was the point of your post that I came across recently.

Russell Higginbotham:

Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting one actually. So, um, yeah, I mean I was amazed how much traction that post got. I was really just sharing a bit of a story and I was trying to actually help also promote the guy who helped me find my way out of it at this at the same time. But uh, yeah, it really took off and had, I think it's nudging towards 60,000 views, um, which is, you know, which is amazing. Um, yeah, so when, when I, you know, when I was sort of at that exit point, um, I was playing tennis actually and twinged a calf muscle and you know, these things happen as you're getting on a bit and whatever you know, um, but then the next day, um, I actually noticed on the opposite, on my opposite side, I had a bit of a sore back. So I sort of put these two things together and, you know, like anyone, you think, ok, what am I going to do? Just let it rest for a couple of days, see if it's OK. And it wasn't. So then I thought, ok, I was playing sports. So I go to the sports physio, have sort of, you know, deep tissue massage and some, you know, this, that and the other, actually, that, this, that and the other actually, um, that that made it seem to get worse, right. And then you think, okay, this is getting a bit more sort of, uh, sticky.

Russell Higginbotham:

So I went to an osteopath I live in a village and it just happens to be an osteopath in the village. I thought, okay, let's, let's go there. They, they had a fiddle around and, um, they said I'm not sure we can help you. Uh, you should go to the doctor. Doctor gave me loads of drugs, um, which which is also an interesting experience of how these things are treated. You know, you start with paracetamol, then you go to ibuprofen, then they give give you some valium, then they give you some cocodamol, you know, and it's you sort of look at what the drugs that you're taking, and then you start taking drugs to to deal with the side effects, right, so here's one for your stomach lining, here's one for this, here's one. Wow, I'm like a walking pillbox right by this stage.

Russell Higginbotham:

So, so eventually I was referred to a sort of uh, you know a back surgeon who I went to see and he said, oh, yeah, we're going to do some, um, steroid injections into the, into the problem area, lots of scans and everything. He said, yeah, 90% of the time this, this works and you know we will be sorted. So I was quite optimistic and so I went for that and then I felt all right for a day. Actually I think that was the local anesthetic, uh. And then the next day it was, it was back and worse.

Russell Higginbotham:

And so actually it started from a health perspective because, you know, you always I've always been, you know, reasonably fit, reasonably healthy, haven't had any challenges, and suddenly you've got a major problem where you you're sort of walking sideways and crunched over and you can't sleep. And yeah, and that was a certain moment, which is, you know, when I found this guy who was recommended, who's was sort of fundamentally a chiropractor but also has a kind of more holistic view on health. So I met him and he started to treat me, change diet, change sort of got rid of all the drugs and went on to some supplements and quit drinking for a period of time, right, and and you know, I think I think what I learned in this there was there's no, there was no kind of fast track, you know to to recovery. It was a bit of a bit of a haul over weeks and weeks and months. But you know you start to feel yourself getting better and moving in the right direction. And then you know things that you were doing, start to normalize and then you realize I'm getting better and moving in the right direction. And then you know things that you were doing, start to normalize and then you realize I'm getting better. And then you get, you get better and you think, wow, I've come out the other side. You know, so it was.

Russell Higginbotham:

It was definitely um a difficult period of time. You know some very sort of dark moments when you definitely can't sleep at night and stuff like that. Um, but you know it. It also gives you some lessons around how to have a better balance in terms of lifestyle. And you know, I guess what I saw is your body as a human can, can do extraordinary things to support, support what you're doing. But it's like, you know, a credit card, you know, you know, or an overdraft sometime, you know, at some point you've got to pay back and I think stopping work was so I think I, you know I would say to say I abused my body sounds a bit extreme, but I'd led a life, uh, that was one where, you know, my body was writing these checks that were eventually going to get cashed, and that moment of stopping working was one where your body basically, or my body, was basically, saying aha, right then you know I don't have to keep you going anymore. Now it's time, for it's my turn, and so that, yeah, interesting, interesting time.

Emma Clayton:

Yeah, and actually there's um. You actually mentioned in your post something about support, because your back is all like it supports your whole body, right? This is fine in the structure and it's almost like how are you so?

Emma Clayton:

your body supports your, or your spine supports you all this time and it's like, what are you doing to support it in terms of, like, rest and recuperation and all that kind of thing?

Emma Clayton:

And I think that's that's been part of my message in terms of like this push and force? Because we do, we kind of push through and like all the travel and the schedule, the late nights, that always being switched on it has its toll and we do start to feel it when we get older and our body is less forgiving as we kind of push on through to the same extent and and actually the whole the modern leader way for me is it's kind of multifaceted. But one of those kind of layers is I talk about the world is kind of crying out for a new era of healthy feminine leadership. And for me feminine leadership isn't just for women. You know we've always talked about left brain and right brain. If you're left brain, that's all your logical thinking, your strategic, that's where you do your planning and and your right brain is where you're more creative and that's where you get your innovation from and that's where empathy lives and emotional intelligence and that kind of thing.

Emma Clayton:

It's kind of like that yeah way of looking at leadership traits being like masculine and feminine, and men and women having both masculine and feminine leadership traits within them.

Emma Clayton:

But from what I've seen, from stepping away from that corporate environment, it's very much like and this is no surprise, right, but it's a masculine environment built by men for men of years gone by, and I think what's happened is women in particular have learned those learned very well to take on those kind of masculine leadership traits and perhaps forgotten some of those very natural feminine leadership traits that they get to bring to the table.

Emma Clayton:

So the modern leader way for me is bringing their whole selves to the table, and that also applies to men, which is why I was so fascinated when I saw you talking about this in a sort of similar way you were kind of hinting towards it because I think it's so crucial that we do stop, we slow down, we take that time out to pause, to look at where we are pushing through, when we need to take a step back and we need to put better boundaries in place and we need to say no more and we need to like look at our schedule and look at where we can delegate more and all this kind of thing. So is that something new, or is that something that you've like, had discussions about or make sense, or you would challenge?

Russell Higginbotham:

no, look, I mean it, yeah, I it. Um, it resonates. I haven't thought about it in a sort of male, female type of way, but I, I guess, I think so. I think the modern leader you know the risk for the modern leader, whether you're the ceo or whether you're a department head or whether you're a team, you know it's almost that sort of always on mentality and if you particularly work, if you work in asia for a european company, you have your day work and then you have the night call. So you're sort of literally, you literally are always, always on. So I think the reason I wrote that post was I thought if one person reads this and does something that changes their approach to work and and life, then that that would be a win for me. Right, that somebody else doesn't have to go what doesn't have to go through what I went through.

Russell Higginbotham:

But I think, um, you know, in terms of that male, female, eq, iq, to me it's yeah, it's about trying to find the right balance and I think you know people who are in leadership positions then have the opportunity to set the tone right.

Russell Higginbotham:

And organizations, you know, ultimately the group CEO sets the tone, but you know leaders in other parts of the business can set the tone too. So at Swiss Re many years ago we had a very strong leader who had an investment banking background and the tone was 24-7, very much always on, and that was a moment in time. But I think in the modern world, trying to find that right balance is important. The problem, I think, sometimes, emma, is that people can look at that sort of more holistic approach to life and to work and to balance and say, ok, those people aren't going to work as hard or they're looking for opportunities not to work. So I think the organization has to be open to it as well and people need to be able to explain actually, I'm going to be much more productive if I'm allowed time to do the things that are important for me, because it keeps the balance in my life. So physical energy will be better then, you know, but also, you know, mental energy and uh, aptitude will be better as as a consequence as well.

Emma Clayton:

So I think the leadership have to sort of demonstrate, but the organization has to be willing to to receive that at the same time yeah, absolutely, and I think that is, if anything, what I've seen is that the challenge is sometimes you have to change the environment to be able to be like your full self and bring this whole thing to the table. If it's not supportive, the support I bring in is to make sure that happens before you're either pushed or before you're forced to stop because you can't continue at the rate that you are. So I think it's a really interesting conversation to bring and actually, on the balance piece piece, I don't think it's just work life balance for the individual. I think it's a workplace balance thing. Yeah, because when, when you've got more leaders leading from this more balanced place, you've got potentially happier employees, you know more satisfied customers on all that kind of thing.

Russell Higginbotham:

So it does have that ripple effect, um yeah, and can bring in that balance across the workplace as well yeah, look, and I think the sort of the end game of of not having this balance is people will be less productive, either, you know, on a day-to-day basis, because they've got other things, niggles or whatever, or they're going to take time out. Which organizations aren't very good at measuring lost productivity anymore? Because you know you don't have that sort of clock in, clock out mentality. You know, in flexible working environments which sound great, people can say, hey, you know I'm not feeling good, or I've got this problem so I'm going to work from home and I'm not going to work as hard. So these things are a lost productivity. Which organizations don't see it? Because you know they don't measure it and they can't, they can't necessarily feel it, so it's, yeah, it's, it's. You need an enlightened leadership and an enlightened organization to really understand what that's, what that means yeah, and I feel like there is a shift.

Emma Clayton:

For sure, there's like more awareness around, like the well-being and wellness kind of conversation, um, I don't know how much of it is lip service and like being seen to be um championing some of these things. But I think time will tell and I think the more we can have these conversations and raise the awareness and just bring it to the table, I think the better.

Emma Clayton:

So yeah I love that you wrote that post, so thank you for doing that. When I was preparing for this conversation, I actually had a little chuckle to myself because I remembered a couple of times back in my earlier career, I guess, where I did kind of come into contact with you for various reasons before I kind of knew you to work closely with you as part of that core team. But it brought up this reminder of, like the imposter syndrome, which is a conversation I have a lot on this podcast, because it's rife and unfortunately the stats that are out there from some of the research that's been done is not just a female thing for sure, it's a male thing as well. And actually the percentages are quite close in terms of 60% of women feel like an imposter on a regular basis at work, and then something like 59% of men also experience it. So it's quite high and I wonder actually, before I get into my own experience, I wonder have you ever felt like an imposter?

Russell Higginbotham:

like, oh sure yeah, loads of times normally it's um, for me it's normally been when your job has changed and you take on the next role. And you know, I guess if you have a reasonably progressive career, your next role is normally a bit bigger, or or whatever. So I remember, if you want an example, um, so when I was running our japan and career business, the team was around I don't know what 30, 35 people, and then I was asked to go and run our Australia, new Zealand business, which was a team of just under 200 people. I didn't really particularly think about it at the time, um, but I remember when I visited um Sydney at the, you know, as a sort of warm-up visit, um, they had a, you know, an office, sort of uh, get together for that. And I sort of walked into this, this big room where everyone was standing mulling, milling around, having a, a drink and waiting, with the head of hr who sort of banged the table and said, oh, everyone, I'd like you to welcome our new co. And then 200 people look round at you and I was almost like looking over my shoulder yeah, where is this? Oh, oh, it's me right. And I think, oh, okay now. And you know, now you think, okay, I've got. This is the moment where you've got to say something and make a good first impression and you know, you sometimes think what, how did? How did that happen? You know? Um, so so it it definitely happens normally at moments of change, or normally when you're doing something different, uh, that you, you sort of question yourself. But you know it's.

Russell Higginbotham:

It's interesting now, as in a, in a period of garden leave, where you start to talk to people, like I said, you know your network in in the market and there are, there are things that you know about the markets, about the business, about management, that you kind of like take for granted because you've been doing it, and then you chat to people and you offer them some thought or some insight which feels pretty basic, and they're like, wow, that's, that's really helpful, thank you. So. So I think you know anyone who feels that imposter syndrome. I would say it's normal, all right, but you know, have, have confidence in yourself and your ability. The reason you're there is because a group of other people said, actually, you can, you can do it. So, uh, you know, so nobody, I think, people who go in sort of super arrogant and say I could do this, no matter what that's. That's worse, actually to to actually ask yourself the question, but then to have the answers, say you know what.

Russell Higginbotham:

I can do this. I have done this.

Emma Clayton:

Yeah, absolutely. And it's like usually with imposter syndrome there is zero evidence to suggest that you're a fraud and you shouldn't be there, because all the evidence stacks up in your favor you've got the promotions, you've got the performance reviews, you've got the good feedback and and all these things. So it's it's kind of an irrational um thought process that goes on and, yeah, to normalize it, I think is is great to say that you're not alone, and around a table of 10 people, there's going to be six people that are perhaps feeling like they don't belong here as well. Um, and I feel like there's more we can do to help people unravel that. And I had, like this was rife throughout my career and when I started talking about it, when I left um, I did my first video where I said this is what I'm going to do and it's going to be about talking about my anxiety and my imposter syndrome. People were like what? You were so confident and I was like, yeah, I just had this really good mask on below the surface. I was crumbling.

Emma Clayton:

And oftentimes I wanted the ground to open up and swallow me whole just to get me out of that situation. And one of them I have to laugh about this I was invited to be part of your top table at the Savoy as part of the top talent. I don't know if you remember this one, but it was a charity ball for staff and you were sat here and the other side was the CEO of Jaguar, I think, who had donated a car for the raffle for the auction, and I I choked on a bit of bread, but you would never have known that I thought I was going to die in the name of keeping silent and not making a fuss and, oh my God, literally you were talking across me and I had this bit of bread stuck in my throat.

Emma Clayton:

It was terrible. I eventually managed to cough it out very gracefully. But I mean, crikey, I just it's just a. It's a funny story in hindsight. And crikey, I just it's just a. It's a funny story in hindsight.

Emma Clayton:

But at the time I didn't feel like I could make a fuss because I was at this top talent table and, like here, I was amongst all these important people. So there was that. And there was another time where you, we were having this innovation kind of thing, where I think it was down in Folkestone and you came into our room where we were innovating and I never saw myself as a particularly creative person, especially in hindsight. I realise it's probably because I didn't really have much to innovate around insurance. I'm fine in my own business, I'm very creative.

Emma Clayton:

But I remember feeling so much pressure to say something, to have an idea to throw into the, into the mix, and you, being there, just put all this pressure on me and I had all these voices going around in my head saying you can't say that like I had these ideas, but I was.

Emma Clayton:

I can't say that it was stopping me, it was pulling me back and lo and behold, you might not believe this, but you actually came up with an idea that was on the tip of my tongue. I just didn't, I wasn't bold enough to say it and I was kind of like gobsmacked because I was like, have you just stolen that from my head? One of those moments where you're like you go out kicking yourself that you didn't have the balls to say it. You just couldn't say it and it just made me chuckle when I was thinking about it, because they literally have come back today as memories, but as memories. But what would you say to someone that's perhaps resonating with feeling like that in these meetings, whether it's these innovation kind of environments where you're all invited to come and throw your ideas in the mix, or it's that situation where you're at a formal event and you can't choke to death because you don't want to make a fuss?

Russell Higginbotham:

well, that's, yeah, let's think about that. That question and idea one is a more sort of, you know, day-to-day uh example. Um, yeah, I mean we've, we've all been there with a question in our mind, but then the you know, either the audience is a bit intimidating or the size of the room, you know, with the number of people there is a bit intimidating, um, but you know, the experience you had is exactly the one people should avoid, where someone else asks the question that you had and then some of the people most people on the stage or whatever it is will say will normally be grateful for questions, because the your worst nightmare is no question. So if someone asks something, um, it doesn't mean matter if it's a silly question or a stupid question or whatever. You're actually really, really happy to have it. So, and easy questions are much easier to answer as well. So I would just encourage people you know, when you come to that fork in the road and you say speak or don't speak, just push to the speak side, it's also a thing that gets you noticed as well, right? So I've definitely been in rooms where I haven't asked a question. I thought why didn't I ask? Why didn't I do it? Why didn't I do it? Um, but, but I think the, the people who genuinely participate because they've got energy and passion and they've got ideas and not always the right idea sometimes that's, that's a people you know. Management will sort of take that as a as positive, just because you see that face in the crowd.

Russell Higginbotham:

One of the best experiences I have had sort of doing a presentation and a Q&A was when I did one for the London Institute of the CII. There's a very big membership and we had an event at Swiss Free's London offices and there was a sort of bit of a chat and a bit of an interview and then I did that thing where I said how has anyone got a question? We had about 10 minutes till drinks and literally 30 hands went up and you know I was like, wow, we're gonna, we're gonna need more time or we're gonna have to get the drinks brought, brought in here, and that, you know, for a speaker that's just such a tremendous thing because you're getting warm feedback from the audience of what you've said is interesting and what you know. So it's a two way street, right, people. So, yeah, don't be, don't be shy, take it, take a chance.

Emma Clayton:

Brilliant, thank you. So what else have you been up to this year, and like what have you got in the pipeline? Anything planned, or are you just going to go in your garden and leave?

Russell Higginbotham:

No, so I mean. So, obviously, when I was struggling with my bad back, that was a time of not being able to do so much, but since that's recovered, actually it's been a time of, I guess, a split between travel and, you know, talking to the network to explore next options. So the travel side is great, because my kids are now, you know, university age, so it's allowed travel outside of holiday season, which is amazing because it's it's a bit cheaper, um, it's a bit cool, it's a bit cooler, um, and you know it's, it's it. The where you, where you go, is a bit quieter as well, so you can just get the best out of places and you can go to all the places that you've thought about going to. So that that's been, that's been great.

Russell Higginbotham:

And then you, and then the other side has really just been starting to explore, with contacts in the market and headhunters, what might be out there. And that's where you get this good feeling from the network that you've maintained, from the experience that you've built. It doesn't have to be the jobs that I've done, whatever job you've done you. It doesn't have to be the jobs that I've done, whatever job you've done. You know, you think actually you get a sense of worth maybe that's a good way to kind of describe it and you know, as part of that process of coming out of a, you know out of a situation of being essentially made redundant, you know it's one of those, as you come out the other side with a sense of worth and a sense of value, that's a great feeling.

Emma Clayton:

Oh, I'm excited to see what you do next, so please do continue to share with us on LinkedIn, won't you?

Russell Higginbotham:

I will. If I have something interesting to say, I'll share it for sure.

Emma Clayton:

Excellent. Thank you, Russell, so much for being here with us today for our 100th episode.

Russell Higginbotham:

Yeah well, congratulations on getting to 100. And here's to the next 100 as well, Emma, Well done.

Emma Clayton:

Thank you. Thank you so much and for everyone listening, thanks for being here again. Next week we are back for the second birthday. Actually, it coincides within a week and I'm talking about my own redundancy journey. It's a rerun of the most popular downloaded episode of the 100 episodes so far. So tune in again next week. And, Russell, thank you again and for everyone else, take care.

Russell Higginbotham:

Thank you.

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