The Modern LeadHer Way

[114] Tracy Cunningham on Burnout, Boundaries, and Bouncing Back

• Emma Clayton

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What happens when the title you’ve worked years to earn arrives exactly as your life falls apart? We sit down with Tracy Cunningham to trace a brutally honest arc: years of high performance, a long-distance move to London, global projects that fed her ambition, and the “yes” to a head of global underwriting role that looked like validation - but came bundled with three people’s workloads and a private tidal wave at home. As her father’s illness turned terminal, late-night calls and relentless delivery became the norm, until her body delivered the verdict: breakdown.

Tracy walks us through the Friday she couldn’t push one more minute, the diagnosis that followed, and the slow rebuild that forced her to decouple worth from output. She shares the hard lessons learned about boundaries, micromanagement, ego, and the quiet danger of self-imposed expectations. We talk about identity after a career crash, the grief that rewires priorities, and why “work-life balance” is not a slogan but a set of non‑negotiable design choices.

There’s hope on the far side. Tracy returns to reinsurance with clear limits and supportive leadership, steps back from a COO role before history repeats, and shapes a remote global position that leverages her expertise without draining her health. If you’ve ever felt the water warming without noticing, this conversation is your early alarm - and your permission to reset. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with one boundary you’ll protect this week.


And join us for part 2 next week where Tracy will be sharing her biggest lessons so you can spot the signs earlier.

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SPEAKER_01:

This is the Modern League Away. Podcast from business-driven career women who want to feel good on the way to the top. I'm Emma Faithan and I'll be showing with you and full advice to help you stop sacrificing your soul in the name of success. An experience more balanced, confident, and fulfilment both in and out of work. Hello and welcome back to the Modern Leader Way. Well, I'm joined today by the wonderful Tracy Cunningham. Hello, Tracy.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello.

SPEAKER_01:

Joining us from down under. Very happy that Tracy and I reconnected uh recently on LinkedIn after you tuned into the episode 100 with Russell Higginbottle. We used to work for Russell. And um we actually, Tracy and I worked together um at Swiss Re and we have also done some work since both leaving Swiss 3 together. And it was just really lovely to hear from Tracy and the journey she's been on over the last seven years since we last um chatted and connected. And I was keen to have her on to talk about the lessons that she's learnt during her career and the highs and the lows and all the things in between, that messy middle we've been talking about more recently, and just kind of bringing some um some humanness to it, some normalization of what goes on behind the scenes, but also like really um some insights into what happens when we work ourselves into the ground and when life be lifing in the way that it often does. So, welcome, Tracy. Thanks for and being so eager to be on and have this conversation because I know you were like so game for it. Um so why don't you just give people a bit of an introduction to where you are in the world, who you are, and um or what you're doing in your work right now, and we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Well, thanks so much for having me on. Where I am in the world right now is yeah, I'm in Australia on the East Coast. I'm about two hours south of Sydney. Um, so it's funny what looking at you sitting there with your um your singletop on, and I I've just um I've had a jumper on and then I've just had to take it off because I've got the heating on now, it's really hot inside because it's freezing outside. I left Swiss Free in 2016, so that's nine years ago now. I worked with them for 11 years, which is the longest I've ever worked for any company. I've been in insurance now for 30, this is my 33rd year. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01:

Um how is that possible?

SPEAKER_00:

I know, I know I started when I was four. Um yeah, so I've always been in the sort of the underwriting space. Um, I've really enjoyed it. Um, people think that insurance is boring, but I've always actually found it that quite interesting, and um, it's certainly given me great opportunities. It's taken me all over the world. I worked for um various companies here in Australia, including Swiss Ray, and then after four years here with them, I was able to move to London with them, which was fantastic. Um lived a fantastic life in London and I worked um yeah, worked in a team over there that looked after global markets. So in that role, I was able to travel the world, um, not just because I was based in the UK and I traveled the world from a personal point of view, but also with work. And then um I left in 2016, and which I'll come back to the circumstances on that, and then um took a bit a couple of years off, did some traveling, um, and now yeah, I ended up settling back in Australia in 2018 and been here since then. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Amazing. And you're secondary insurance working for Jenry now, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I am working for the fabulous Genry. So, and I'm I'm back in a global role. I'm 100% remote and yeah, it's really interesting, interesting role.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, love it. Okay, right, we're gonna get to it all. So, why don't we go back then to um I guess to the time at which you were coming to the end of your career at Swiss Re and tell us about what was going on for you then because I know there was a lot of stuff going on.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, sure. So I had um when I'd moved to London, I hadn't known hardly anybody. Um, I had one friend that lived in Hertfordshire, and that was about it. I I I briefly knew the people that I was going to work with, so I moved to a new city and uh went through that expat sort of transition where loneliness and questioning my reality. Um but after a few years, I'd really settled in. I loved the team I was in, I love the people that I was working with, I'd made some great friends in London and was living my best life, like really. I've always worked hard, I've always put everything into my work. Um I think even at school, I was always putting everything into it. Didn't necessarily want to be top of the tree, um, but always wanted to do my best and give everything that I could. And so what that ended up looking like around about, I think it was about 2014, the company, well, the the underwriting profession um within our company went through a relook at their strategy and and the vision, right? And initiated a quite a large project to look at that. And I had a quite a leadership role within that. I'd previously I'd just come out of leading a big um technology project over the last of the prior few years, and so going into this new sort of um vision strategy, I had that leadership role in that as well. Um, but I didn't lead the team. I guess I was working minimum 50 hour weeks, but 50 to 60 hour weeks, like long, long hours. And if you'd asked me why, um nobody was expecting that of me. I was just doing it, you know, um, because the work needed to be done. And I guess I was I had always been passionate about the work, um, and I guess I still was. Um, but there were there were frustrations and a and a project, a global project like that comes with the the bureaucratic challenges and the project and the streams and the everything that goes with it. So I was putting a lot of my energy into that. And um, and then I think it was around 2015 that that there was a restructure kind of happened, and there was the opportunity for me to apply for a role that would have been a promotion. And that was a real pivotal point for me. I had been working really hard for probably a couple of years, um, and I really asked myself during that time, do I want to continue doing this? Do I really want to stay doing this, or do I just want to pack up and go travel the world for a year or so and and and then come back and do like get back into I wasn't looking to leave the industry, but have a sabbatical, have a break. Do I really want to keep doing this anymore? Um, because because of those frustrations. And because I guess I was starting to really feel tired. And my manager um sort of went through some, you know, some tough times as well. And what I didn't appreciate until probably 12 months later was how much he was shielding me and the team. And um so yeah, I asked myself that question and then he ended up leaving. I ended up getting offered the role that I'd applied for, which was the head of global underwriting. And I just remember like the senior manager asking me, Do you still want, do you still want it? And honestly, I mean the day before I was like this for saying no, I don't, I'm out of here. This is I've I'm done. But I didn't, and I I can honestly say, I say this without judgment of myself for this, that I made the ego choice and said, Yes, I want it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um and I made that choice, um, like I say, ego choice, but it was about I felt like I'd been almost doing that role for a while. I'd been working so hard that getting that title, getting that position was almost like the recognition of of all of that. It was the reward. And it was it was showing the world, hey, this is I'm I'm this good, which sounds so it sounds so wanky, but it I I can't really describe it any other way. It just was like, I want, I I want that, you know. And also I I did, I'll be honest, I thought, got if I've got that on my CV, then that's quite a feather in my cut. And that's probably the only time I've ever really done that in my career. I've never chased the top job. I've never, I've always made sideways moves. I'd always taken jobs that increased my experience rather than was the next level up, you know. So anyway, I did that. It was part of a restructure, as I said. So staffing numbers changed, but the workload didn't. And I was now managing the team that I had come from, and I wasn't replaced. Um I not only took on that new role, but I also took on my managers, my former managers' responsibilities in the project. And then there was other pressure to do other work as well. And it was just, it was such a lot. It was a lot, even it was a lot for any human. I now look back and realize that was essentially three people's jobs. And at the same time, ex stepping up a level to the director role director level, which you're supposed to, you know, you're expected to operate at a different level. Um, and I was on a leadership program, so there was there was training and support around that. Um, but everybody that I was working with was under a lot of pressure. And then in my personal life, um, my father had been sick with cancer for a few years, and he we we thought, you know, he's been treated and he's better, and then it'd come back. And then um, so that was I took that role at the end of 2015, and I'd come home, I'd come back to Australia for Christmas New Year, and on New Year's Eve, actually, he got the the no the message from his doctors that he he was terminal now, and he they gave him about six months to live. So, I mean, that was a real struggle as well, and I didn't really know what to do with that. Um, living living on the other side of the world, and that's happening. And what do you do? I mean, uh my dad had lived away from Sydney for 15 years, so it's not like I'd seen him every month or every week, or you know, I'd seen him only a few times a year, but it's still, you know, you you go through yeah, I didn't know what to do with that, like I said. So went back home to the UK and negotiated with the company to say, right, I'm going. This is what I obviously before COVID and before remote working was a thing, that I want to go and spend a month in Australia, um, spend like a month with him working remotely from there. I mean, I didn't have any annual leave left because I've been backwards and forwards um so much. So I want to work remotely from Australia, spend that time with him, and then come back. So I did that. I mean, that was that was grueling. That four weeks turned into six as it happened. Um, I still had to be in meetings that on the time zone that I was in was 1 a.m., midnight 1 a.m. It was a lot, and then my father was, you know, dying, and then he and and and he was having there was a lot of stress going on in his life as well with his living situation, which I was helping him through. So when I at the end of that, I came back to the UK probably in the April of 2016, March or April, I think it was, and actually it was a little bit earlier, and trying to cope with this really pressurized job, knowing that was happening over there, and my body started breaking down. Like I mean that quite literally. I had, you know, I had some uh I had two different, I had a massive um gallbladder attack, which I didn't know what it was when I was away, and I was on my own, and I didn't know what was going on. The pain was probably the worst pain I've ever felt in my life. Um, I considered going over to my dad's and getting some of his like opioid medication just to get through it. When I later told my mum about it, she said that sounded like gallstones. Um, I had another illness going on, and I also had um I'd been on antidepressants for a few years because I hadn't really faced up with to what was going on with me. I'd pushed all the stress and everything down, and I'd been diagnosed with depression. And that was just getting worse. And I I think the other thing, rather than other than just on top of just the physical symptoms, I started feeling like I just don't care anymore. Like I just um I used to be so passionate and driven with this job, and now I just I I went from being super, super stressed because I was under so much stress and and I just couldn't see a way out of it and I couldn't focus and um to like if I just take a few days off, they won't, you know, they'll just have to deal with it, right? But needed some time off with some of these medical issues. What was happening for me as well in that situation, in that whole sort of prolonged work situation was I'd started doubting myself. I was being questioned a lot, and I felt I I didn't recognize it as this at the time, but I can now look back and see I was really being micromanaged, partially because of how my manager operated and partially because he could see that I didn't appear to be coping. Um I now realize why I wasn't coping, but you know, with all that that those health things going on and the situation going at work and uh sorry at home with dad. And then um, yeah, I I was really doubting myself. I wasn't um backing myself. I now know that I was uh like I had the expertise for that, but I what I wasn't doing is putting any boundaries up. I was just um allowing people to just keep asking more and more and more of me, and I wasn't saying I can't do all this. I felt like if I said that, people would think I can't cope. I shouldn't have been promoted, I can't cope with this job. So I just had to put this brave face on or this face, whether it was brave or not. I didn't really ask for help. I think towards the end I did start to ask for help, but I that that's where I was. So what how it kind of ended up was there was this um one situation where I had um I'd made a decision and my manager had not liked the decision. And we had a meeting about that, and that meeting was not constructive, and I was really at the end of my tether, and I I just broke down. I broke down in tears and I said to him, you know, I've got all of this health stuff going on, some of which he knew about. Um, he didn't know about the mental health stuff. I think that really made him stop and pause, but I just couldn't hold it in anymore, and I was shaking, and I was just, I just remember feeling cold and feeling like the world is just ending right now. That's how it felt like. It really felt like in that afternoon, the world is ending for me. Like my career, my professional world is ending. I've never done badly at work, and I'm doing badly at work now, and he doesn't think I can do this job, and I just didn't know what to do. And it was a Friday afternoon, and my brother was flying in from he was in um Germany at the time, and I and he was stopping by the office to pick up my key to go and let himself into my flat. And I was about to have another going to another meeting, we're in a meeting room, I have my laptop there, and I said to my boss, can we just take a pause? I'm I'm I'm taking next week off anyway for this health situation that I've got going on. I need to have a procedure done. And can we just we just I I don't even know how I finished that sentence. And he said, Of course we can, of course we can. And he kind of left me with that and he said, Do you want to leave now? I said, No, I've got this meeting I've got to go to. I was still a blabbering mess thinking, I've still got to do this meeting.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

And I sat there in that meeting room and I realized we can do this meeting. And I the meeting room was I don't you remember what the the offices were like there at Swiss Ree. Like the meeting room was there, and then and it was glass wall, and all my team were out there. And I just I I ended up sending like an instant message to one of my she worked in my team, but she's a good friend. Well, you know her as well, Beck. Right? Said to Beck, I need you, can you come in here? And she came in and I just said to her, Can you get me out of here? I can't I can't keep going. And I I I I don't know what to do. Can you get me out of this building? Like that's how bad it was. I just couldn't function, physically function anymore. And I mean, God love her, and she's got she's just brilliant, a wonderful human being, and just so calm and just knows exactly what to do. She probably would say she doesn't, but she does. And she just went and got my handbag, got a few things, and as it turned out, my brother just turned up and I cancelled that meeting. I didn't do the meeting um because I would have been useless. And I went downstairs and it was funny. I got down in the lift and my brother was there, and he took one look at me and said, What's happened? I thought I was, you know, and he he just said, he was just like, What happened? I said, Don't worry about it, like let's just go. And um, and then I ended up having the next couple of weeks off. Um, I um I never went back. And uh what ended up happening was, yeah, I my doctor obviously gave me the time off. I ended up having to see psychologist, psychiatrist. I was diagnosed with an adjustment disorder, was like a mini version of PTSD. Um, I ended up having like flashbacks. And again, I all I'm gonna say is that that this wasn't my manager's fault. He just happened to be the person who was there in the moment that this all happened. This, this, I got to this through years and years of not taking care of myself, of working myself into the ground and not asking for help and not recognizing the signs of what I needed, and and then not, and then being a people pleaser, never saying no, and not setting boundaries. And I say all this to you not in judgment of myself, um, but in having done a lot of soul searching since and recognizing the the road that got me to where I got to.

SPEAKER_01:

Just really interested. What's going on in your body right now? Are you kind of reliving this?

SPEAKER_00:

I was a little bit, but I'm I think I've done enough work on it that I've let it go to some degree, but I'm kind of I'm putting myself back there to express exactly how bad I am. No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

It's just really interesting because I know you're so aware and you've had that luxury of time and space in between. And I'm pretty sure your feet are planted on the floor, you are supported, you are here now. I'm just it's it it just it happens, right? And even I'm feeling yeah, my shoulders are up, I'm like resonating in a way as you're telling this story. I can I'm feeling it with you, right? Yeah, resonating in a certain way. So I was just curious as to whether or not that still has an impact on you today because it's normal. That's like our body remembers.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, it does. And and I think in my mind, when I'm telling you, I'm jumping around to like what happened, what happened in the lead up, and then what happened in the moment, and then what happened in the recovery, and what's the message I kind of want to get, because like this is this is part of what connected us. I'm really quite passionate about trying to be a warning story, you know, cautionary tale. But people who are in that situation and don't realize it. And I've said this to you before, I was I was the proverbial frog in the pot. I did not know that the hot that the water was getting warmer and warmer warmer, did not know it was a boiling, and I didn't know how bad it was until I was really cooked and and overcooked. And and I still didn't realize it until quite a bit later. What was what what the hell just happened, you know, in the last 12 months. So Swiss Ray used to run, and then maybe they still do run these um once a month info sessions. And I remember that they had one of those lunchtime presentations where a woman came in talking about good stress and bad stress, and she had a flip chart and she drew a graph, and she she had the graph where you know the good the the the bell curve, right? And the we we need good stress, we need stress in our lives to get us out of bed and or not get us out of bed, but get us motivated, and and that's good stuff, and you and you need this to like really generate action, and you just need to be careful that you don't start tipping over. And this is and then there was the line, and here's the red line. And so when you're up here, you're in the red, and you need to try and bring yourself back down because otherwise you'll end up going down, down here, and then you'll end up off the cliff, right? And I remember that like it wasn't it wasn't a bell curve, it was actually it was that, and then it was the cliff, and and she said this then, like that um the coming, like climbing from the bottom of the cliff is so much harder than just climbing back up the hill a little bit and coming back down. And I mean, I it obviously made an impact. That'd be 10 years ago that I saw that, and I remembered it, and I remember thinking, okay, you know, the good stress, the bad stress, I'm probably into bad stress. I usually think hear these talks and think of other people in my life and how I can transmit this to other people, and I'm not quite sure I really put it put myself in it, but um I'm gonna say now, um she wasn't wrong. So coming back from a crash like I had, it's years worth of work, and I don't even know if I'm recovered. Um, what is what is recovery anyway? You know, I I don't know. I mean I think I'm physically healthier, I'm definitely less stressed. Um I've learned a lot of lessons out of it. I wouldn't choose to go through it, but if I can do anything, if if the the good stuff's out of this is to to try and stop people from falling off the cliff. I know exactly what it's like to have people telling you you've got to pull back, you've you've um you've got to take care of yourself and thinking, you have no idea. You have no idea what my life is like. I mean, my mother used to tell me, you need a break, you need to stop working so hard. And I used to think, oh, for Christ's sake, you have no idea. You've never walked in the corporate world, you don't know what life is like. This is life. This is I've got to keep working to earn money, otherwise, like I've got no one looking after me. Um, and so this is this is just the way that it is. And I just accepted that this is just the way that it is. And also, I think as well, if you've worked at a company a while or even industry or a job for a while, you don't see a different way. You get, I don't want to use the word indoctrinated, but I can't think of a better one right now, into not so much the company culture, but just the corporate culture, I think is probably more accurate.

SPEAKER_01:

Institutionalized almost.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. I just remember a few years afterwards and and speaking to people and going, yeah, there's a life outside of that company, you know, not just the three, but whatever company you're in, there's a life outside of it. You can survive it. But we've also talked about the identity crisis. Oh my God, I had such an identity crisis after that. I mean, what I ended up what ended up happening after that was I I left. Um, I stayed in the UK for a few months, and then I came back home. Like I got a flat. Dad lived with me. But when I say I got a flat, it was like we just had the most lovely environment. It had a view of the ocean and then the mountain that was is beside the ocean. And Dad, although he had this, he had this terminal illness, he had a tumour in his neck, he was actually well. He just was in pain. He was well right up until like three weeks before he died. And he definitely lasted a lot longer than what they gave him, which was really fortunate. He ended up dying the the following March. Um, so he lived with me that whole time and he loved woodwork. So he would do his woodwork in the morning, and then the afternoon we'd sit on the lounge and we would comfort watch TV. So I mean, I definitely don't regret that time that I had with him. I mean, again, if everything happens for a reason, maybe that had to happen for me to come home and have that time with him and really reconnect with him. Um so I cannot regret that at all. And but in terms of my own personal recovery, I would sit on the in we had a recliner. Um I would sit on the recliner and I would just basically stare at the trees on the mountain. And I just I didn't have energy to read a book. I didn't have energy to do anything new. I we when I say we comfort watch TV, we watched all the old Indiana Jones, we watched all the old Doctor Who, you know, all of this stuff. I didn't have the capacity in my brain to to even read a new book. Um, and I read two books a week, usually, you know. My brain just needed to not think anymore, not work hard. And all I thought, all I could think of was I'll just go and get a job pulling beers or cappuccinos. I mean, I've gone from the peak of my profession head of global underwriting in a company like Sys Reeds, the largest reinsurer in the world, to my career must be over. I can't work in the corporate world anymore, I'm not up for it. It was also that whole, well, if I'm not that, who am I? And that has been my aisle whole identity. I don't even know what I am without that. And that was really hard to deal with as well. So yeah. It was a lot.

SPEAKER_01:

The trip. What's the trip? And I think let's just jump forward to where you are now because you are back in reinsurance and you are in like this ideal role, right? This ideal place with this beautiful balance in your lifestyle. Like, tell us where you are now.

SPEAKER_00:

Give those kids out there some hope. So I when I moved back to Australia, I got a job with Jenry, um, chief underwriter here in Australia of the Australian-New Zealand business. By that stage, I was physically and emotionally recovered, I would say. Um, and I knew about boundaries and I knew that I needed to be very clear with my prospective employers. And I was really fortunate that the HR manager at Gen Re was the same woman who I'd worked with at Swiss Re in Sydney. And she was just the best HR professional I've ever worked with before. And my and that my that Jenri is just a very um a lovely place to work. And my manager was great. And I said to them, you know, I I work hard, but I'm not going to work all of the hours of the day and week. And um, and they said, we don't want you to, we don't expect you to. And so I was very um disciplined in doing that. Where I was living now, I had quite a long commute, so I couldn't, I couldn't actually work those really long hours, and I didn't need to um to get the work done. So um, so that was all great. Um unfortunately, my mother then got sick and and I was then having to care for her, having to, but I, you know, I got to spend the last years of her her life, you know, living with her as well and sharing those responsibilities with my brothers as well. And then COVID hit, you know, and then working from home and all of this sort of stuff. And I think after mum had passed, after we were kind of all recovering, or we were midway through the COVID crisis, I was offered the role within my company of COO. Again, I hadn't gone chasing this stuff. It was playing to a strength that I think I've always had, which is leading people. But part of my job I've always loved. So yeah, I I took on that role and I had that for about 12 months. But then during that time, I realized actually I'm it's this is starting to amp up a bit. Again, the company went through a bit of a restructure, and some of the pressures of that role were um were becoming a lot. It was also about how effective I could be as a not technical manager, right? At claims. And I could have really like logged my guts out, putting a lot into just making it work. And but I actually realized where I was headed. I I could I, you know, it was where I'd Been headed before. And I and I thought, no, instead of instead of doing that, I'm just gonna say to my manager, um, I think we need to rethink this. I don't think that this is working anymore. And I knew that it wasn't working for me. Yeah. Um, and so I took that step back again. And you know, we had done a lot of really good work within the claims team and got it into a better shape than it had been when I'd taken it over. And I felt pretty comfortable with that, the the way that I was handing it um over to the new manager. And um, and so then I I remained chief underwriter and kept do we kept doing that. And then I had a change in circumstances in my personal life as well. Um I ended up moving further south with my now fiance, and so it was a longer commute again, so two hours each way commute, and I just knew that's just not I can't do that. So I then reached out to the man who had used to be my manager in Australia, who'd moved back to Germany and was now the head of global underwriting and pricing, and said, Do you see um any place for me in your team? And he said, Absolutely, and so I didn't just drop it. We needed to transition and and recruit into my role. And then now I work for again the global team. I don't have any direct reports, I don't mind that, even though I've always loved leading people. I actually um I don't mind it because I get to focus on the technical aspects of underwriting, which I haven't done for a long time because I've been in these leadership roles and I'm really enjoying that. Um I'm 100% remote. My team and my manager are based in Germany, so we can manage a 24-hour sort of service for our all of our global clients. It's playing to my strengths, and I can still sort of share that 30 years of expertise that I've built up, you know, wherever it's needed. And then I I think for me it's just this balance of my life that I have now. It's I don't need to be top of the tree. I don't want to be there. I just I don't want to spend hours and hours and hours every day in meetings, and that's the reality of being the boss and being in these lead these management positions. I don't want to have to do all that, and I don't do it, and so I've kind of now been able to, I've just managed to create this sort of great um work situation for myself. Yeah, and and then I get to spend my energy. I still work hard and I still give my all to my job, but that doesn't drain my essence out, which is what has previously happened. So I guess if anything, you know, I those lessons that I'd learned um from my experience back then has really helped me to navigate this sort of next chapter of my life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that, and I think it's really important to bring that in now in this conversation because you have basically created this kind of new work-life balance, this new role, like it's something you sought out and chose as a a bigger lifestyle choice. And I've been talking about like redefining success on your terms, and this is a great example of how you get to do it because it doesn't have to be up and up and up and up and up, it gets to be twisting and turning and off on different tangents if you want it to be like it can be trick you want, and it just sounds like you've created this on your terms, but it's almost like you you kind of had to go through what you went through to a certain extent to get to this point. So I think it's a an incredibly powerful story about how there is life after burnout, right? There's balance after burn, and if we can just spot the signs in ourselves, which is so hard to see, it's like being that fish in water, you don't realise you're in water, right? Yeah, all right. I think that's a perfect place to take a break. We've heard Tracy's story, we've also heard what came from the breakdown, and next week we're gonna come back and hear all of the lessons that she's had from the breakthroughs. So do come back. We look forward to seeing you next week, and in the meantime, take good care of yourself.

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Emma Clayton

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