The Modern LeadHer Way

[115] Lessons that could save your career & your sanity with Tracy Cunningham

• Emma Clayton • Season 4 • Episode 115

Share episode

Send us a text

In part 2 of this conversation we unpack the subtle ways high-achieving women slip from care into over-responsibility, how identity fuses to a job title, and why the path back to balance rarely requires burning your career to the ground. Tracy returns to distil the hardest-won lessons from her 2016 crash in London and the calm, steady rebuild that followed - less martyrdom, more boundaries, and a relationship with rest that feels like strength, not guilt.

We talk through practical support that actually helps: independent coaching that challenges blind spots, therapy that steadies the mind, and immersive, in-person work that creates clarity fast. The conversation moves from conditioning that rewards the “mother hen” manager to smarter leadership habits - delegation that develops people, realistic deadlines, and the courage to stop pre-chewing tasks for your team. We also explore identity beyond titles and how tools like human design can offer a humane lens on energy, decision-making, and alignment without turning you into a label.

The heart of this episode is permission. Permission to speak frankly about mental health at work so the weight lifts. Permission to choose non-binary paths - stay and change how you show up, rather than quit in crisis. Permission to make space for play and lightness because joy is performance fuel. If you’ve felt the quicksand of overwork or the fear that rest equals weakness, this is your sign to pause, get support, and reclaim your pace.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway. Your story might be the permission someone else is waiting for.

Get Your FREE Success Roadmap: https://www.emmaclaytonxo.com

✨ Join the waitlist to hear about the Next Time Out Retreat
https://www.emmaclaytonxo.com/f/retreat-waitlist

Join us in the Secret LeadHer Files: https://www.emmaclaytonxo.com/courses/secret-files

Book your Game Plan here: https://www.emmaclaytonxo.com/courses/game-plan

Subscribe to the video podcast and watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1Q8bQIq6BaPnRh5mht8E_Cxa8nn5SJ3Q

Connect with me & become part of the listener community on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmaclayton.xo/

SPEAKER_01:

This is the Modern Leader Way, a podcast for ambitious and driven career women who want to feel good on the way to the top. I'm Emma Clayton and I'll be sharing with you tangible advice to help you stop sacrificing your soul in the name of success. And experience more balance, confidence, and fulfilment both in and out of work. Hello and welcome back to the show. Last week we heard from the amazing Tracy and her very emotional story about her burnout whilst in London in 2016 and also her really impressive comeback, right? And today we're just revisiting some of those real key lessons that she learnt from the breakthrough that she wants to impart on you so that you can help either yourself or someone that you know and love so that you can spot the signs earlier, right? And avoid going down some of the paths that she did. So thanks for coming back. If you haven't listened to part one, I highly recommend you go back and start there with the story. And otherwise, let's get into it and bring this conversation to a beautiful close. I think it's an incredibly powerful story about how there is life after burnout, right? There's balance after burn. There is. And if we can just spot the signs in ourselves, which is so hard to see. It's like being that fish in water, you don't realize you're in water, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, you know, over the years, the more I learn about burnout, uh and and they list the the signs and the symptoms and whatever, the more I recognize, oh my God, yes, that was me. So, like I said, I I stopped caring about the job and about the people I worked with. And when I say I stopped caring for about the people I worked with, I didn't stop caring about them as people, but I kind of realized how I'd been like throwing my body on the line, like shielding people and taking on, oh look, I don't want you to be stressed, leave it with me. I'll be stressed instead.

SPEAKER_01:

Which we do, and I think we do as women.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my god. I remember someone that we used to work with once said to me, Oh, yes, I know you're a mother hen about like about my team. And and the more I look back on that now, I go, okay, I I thought at the time, no, I'm just a good manager, I'm making sure that they're all okay. And I was, but I was doing it at my own expense, right? So, you know, and and I think as well, what we don't realize when we're doing things like this is we're taking the opportunity for them to deal with it themselves, right? Like, I don't need to chew you food for you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

Why am I doing this? They're not asking me to do it. I'm doing this for some innate reason in myself. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And this is a thing, right? It is it's either innate because it's part of who we are, we're just naturally a very nurturing um person, or it's because of our conditioning through our our upbringing, whether that's in school and that's what we were taught to always do, or whether it was through our uh our upbringing at home when we were younger, right? I don't know whether your is your brothers are they younger?

SPEAKER_00:

Much younger, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So, you know, already you've got that kind of you have got that role that you're playing for these younger symbols you've got. So, you know, yes, it could be innate, but it could also be um just learnt behavior. Yeah, what happens, and it's only when we s we kind of take that step back and go, hang on a minute, is that actually who I am? And sometimes it takes that identity crisis almost to like shake things up for you to to look at it, but it doesn't have to take that. I think this is that's what I wasn't have to get to rock bottom to pull yourself out and to to go on this like self-discovery journey and work out what it means for you.

SPEAKER_00:

You can still do all this self-discovery stuff, you don't have to dig yourself out of the mind to to do it. And um I I was listening to your podcast with Claire um earlier, and uh you guys were talking about coaching, and I mean I think I totally agree. I think you need I think people if you start to recognize these things going on, like try yourself, but also I think having an impartial third party helping to point things out to you and outside of your organization, outside of your family. I mean psychologists are good as well. Like if you're I mean, for me, uh I was also on a big mental health um crisis, and so uh having a s working with a psychologist over the last many years now has been really helpful to me as well. They're there for you, and that's the same with coaches. So you don't it can be a psychologist if you've got that going on, or it can be a coach, but like have somebody and not even a friend, um, because all these other people are invested in you and your life, sorry, yeah, emotionally in in your life or in your work. Um, and you need that real independent third party to help um to help shine a light on what you're not refusing to see, or actually, you know what it is? Holding you accountable, like really challenging you. I think that's it. It's to challenge, challenge your own beliefs about what you think. Like I said, mum was saying to me, you need a break, and I'm going, you don't know what you're talking about. But actually, she did to some extent because although she hadn't worked in the corporate world, she knew what burnout was, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And then actually you came to me, didn't you? In I think it was around 2017, 2018. You came to me for a couple of days for a VIP day. What what do you remember about that time? There's a part of my walk with the dog that I always you I get flashbacks of our our conversations as we were walking and talking. And for me, there's always a lot of listening. I think it's just cathartic in itself to be able to just tell your story and to talk about like where you've come from and like the kind of hopes and dreams and things like that. But what's your what's your recollection of our couple of days that we had together?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I remember feeling very cocooned in that the the cabin that you have there, but not just with you and Adam and Buddy, the dog, and feeling very um safe. So that year I had come back to the UK. I decided I was, I'd done a lot of travel, I decided I was coming back to the UK and going to try and settle. I thought, oh, I'm gonna be self-employed and I'm going to be a consultant and um, you know, because in Australia it was actually quite easy to get very well-paid contract underwriting work. And what I had underestimated is that I had a reputation in the Australian market, and although I'd worked in the UK for seven years, I'd worked in a global team, so I didn't know the UK, or the UK market didn't know me. But to be fair, although I'd tried to do a to get a bit of work, I I didn't try very hard because I think I I didn't realize that I my heart wasn't in it. I actually didn't want to be self-employed. I actually quite liked the the comfort, the security of having a job and getting a and knowing that I'm gonna get paid. That year I'd actually gone down again um from a mental health point of view, very into the depths of of whatever, wasn't really getting the help that I needed. So I do remember almost that being a therapy weekend with you. So I I don't remember um specifically what we talked about, but I remember the feelings and I remember it being patharic and just being able to talk it all out. And I do remember coming away with a feeling of um softness and um more clarity and just that feeling of being gentle with myself, like not having to have it all figured out that that I'll be okay. I'll just do the next step and it'll be all right. So that's what I I recall.

SPEAKER_01:

Love it. And I do I I love this in-person kind of touch point, and I don't want to say intensity of like being here for a day or two, but it is like you get so much done and so much out and so much more clarity by the time you leave. It's just a great, beautiful way for me to be able to work. Obviously, I work online with women across the world, but yeah, to have them come here and to create that safe space where you just get to be fully yourself is just something that I I really love doing, so it's something I still do today. Um, we were talking as well just before we hit record about um something you picked up on on my one of my recent episodes around human design. So I do drop this into the conversation. And actually, if um if you go back to I think a year ago, like last summer, I actually have my human design teacher and good friend Sue Jones Miranda on, and uh, we did kind of a little series of human design readings. We did some like famous, well-known people like Taylor Swift and and Stephen Bartlett and things like that, and we also talked about my human design. And I know that this has kind of come into your sphere of awareness more in the last six months or so, but what I love about human design is as we were kind of talking about your story, and I just asked you what your human design is, and like just in your profile, it made so much sense why you've kind of gone through these like trials and tribulations, and why you're so passionate now about helping other people not go down the same path, like learn your lessons, right? And so, from an identity perspective, when women hit like because I think it happens at a certain age, it's like you kind of come up for air after you've been like working so hard and given your all for this company or this role or this career, and you're like, actually, who the fuck am I without this without this title, global underwriting, chief underwriter, whatever? Or like for me, I I was uh the head of operations and strategy digital analytics catalyst. It sounded really impressive. No one knew what the frick it was. I'm I'm not even sure I knew what it was, but take that away from me when I when I can't introduce myself as I work for a global reinsurance company in the Gherkin, like who am I? And this happens so often, and I think human design for one is a great indicator as to like it's it's deeper than this kind of personality testing that we talked about, MBTI or the kind of things that you get to do through your work, and it's kind of it's actually who did you actually come here to be, and how did you come here to operate, and how does your energy thrive in this world? Yeah, and actually, when you can look at that and take the bits that really resonate, and then question whether or not you're just going against your own natural nature by working in this way, or you just want to reject it, that's fine. Um, it kind of gives us it tells us a lot. So the modern lead her way is very much about finding your way, right? And I feel like you've found your way to be in the world. I'm finding it, still finding it, but you've made conscious choices along the way to change your current reality. So and and live life on your terms, right? Very much where you're now is is more on your terms than kind of being a slave to the job. Um and I'm calling it reclaim your leading edge because it's like your leading edge is going to be very different to mine, and it's gonna be very different to the next person's. And like if I can just get across this, when we find what feels good for you personally, it's just such a game changer. So I want to put that out there because I am bringing human design very much into that conversation, is kind of more self-discovery. Um, kind of like who if you're sitting there thinking, like, who am I? Is this really for me? Is this the way I want to, you know, really, are you gonna be able to keep this up for another 10 years, for example, in your role? Then give me a shout because I've got a great offer at the moment to that self-discovery journey. Um, so I I'm just I want to go, I just want to ask you a question. Like, what would you say now, as the nurturing carer that you are, clearly what would you say to your younger self, let's go back 10 years ago? What would you say to her now?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh dear. Um, what would I say to her? Don't doubt yourself. Um don't believe what you perceive people are thinking of you. Because I don't actually know what the people around me were thinking, but I believed that they were thinking I can't do this job. So I second guessed everything I did, and then I just really I gave my power away. And I would also say that rest is not laziness.

SPEAKER_01:

Hallelujah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um yeah, you don't have to always be switched on. You need rest. I mean, we need rest, that's it's as simple as that. Um, and that you have choices and you're not trapped here because I think a big part of the stress was I can't escape this, and it's all or nothing. You know, I think that's the thing, it's either all or I leave. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It can be I can be here and do this job on my terms. No one was gonna sack me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Find another place that I belong right now in this in this period of my life, right? In this chapter.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think I think we think, oh God, yes, but the work's got to be done. Yeah, well, unless you're actually cutting into people on the table, I mean, you're not saving lives here, right? So if that piece of work doesn't get done by our internally self-imposed deadline, what's gonna happen? You know, like is it worth giving up your health? Actually, you know the biggest lesson I think more fun, more play. Yes, please. Lightness, lightness, because it was so heavy and so I was dragging my it's like walking through quicksand for a lot of the time, and that a lot of that was self-imposed.

unknown:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And we do this, and I think we do this more so as women, because we take on the weight of the world of everyone and kind of become martyrs in a way, don't we? It's like I've got to carry this weight around with me. You do not have to, you get to ask for help, you get to put that down, and you get to at any point take that pause. And it sounds like a shameless plug, but this is why I've created time out retreats. Yeah, it's like really that sacred space to take that person out of their environment and give them the quiet, the peace to hear themselves, to learn to trust themselves, which I think is partly what you're saying in your first thing, you know, don't doubt yourself. Actually, trust, trust those little signals you're getting, trust the whispers, trust the knowing that perhaps you're going down a path that is not for you or not helpful for you. Um it doesn't have to be drastic. It doesn't mean that take them out and it's a drastic change of career or leave.

SPEAKER_00:

You don't have to change, doesn't it? You don't have to leave the job.

SPEAKER_01:

It could be some improved boundaries or learning how to say no and not to people please all the time. So I think um, yeah, that's it just reinforces to me why I'm so passionate about creating that time that sacred time out for people to um just be able to hear themselves clearly.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I I yeah, I mean, that's that really is uh probably the strongest message, which I don't even think I realized it was the strongest message until we're just talking now, which is it isn't all or nothing. You don't have to make that momentous change. Um great if you want to, but you don't have to, you know. I mean I think the industry I work in is really worthwhile and I I enjoy the work I do. I really love the people that I work with. I'm so fortunate in the um circumstances now that I work. And I don't think about my job 24-7. And I'm and then therefore I can invest that energy in other stuff in my family life and in my, you know, do study and do this and do that and have fun. Meet the love of your life. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

Were you even open to meeting the love of your life back then?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I was in a relationship, I think, when that was happening. Um, yeah, so but it not this one. And and he and I have remained friends, um, but that was I guess, yeah, that was that was where I was at that point. But I mean afterwards, and after uh he and I had parted, I mean I just thought it was it was a part of that being at the bottom, the the you know, the bottom of the cliff. It was uh my life is not over. I didn't think my life was over, and I was never, you know, suicidal or anything like that, but um maybe passively because I just was not I just didn't see what the future could possibly hold. That's how bad it got. And I just really want other people not to get there. Um, you don't have to get there. And trust me, I do know what it's like when people are telling you you just have to take a break and you think you have no idea. I have a fucking idea, and you do have to take a break. So take a break.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, amen. I think that's a great point to leave it this conversation on. Thank you so much for sharing the real raw details of what you've been through because I think it is important that we do hear the reality of these things and also see the transformation, right? And how you come out the other side.

SPEAKER_00:

Um and look, I mean, there's probably only one other thing that I would say um is that being open, and I don't know, um, I mean, that there's been such a shift in this in society uh over the last 10 years, but five years probably post-COVID, um, of being more open about your mental health journeys. But I remember nobody in my life other than my doctor and maybe one other person knew that I was on medication for depression. And it was this dirty little secret. I was um not ashamed, I was afraid. I was afraid of telling anyone because then I everyone would just think I wasn't from a work point of view, they would think I'm not up to the job, even though I'd been on it for years and been doing the job very well. And on the personal side of things, I didn't want people tiptoeing around to me. But as soon as I started um just saying, well, I couldn't avoid telling people because why that they must have been wondering what the hell is wrong with you. As soon as I started telling people, oh my God, the weight that lifted off me. It's just amazing. And you know, a few years ago, I I spoke to my company in Australia, uh, the Australia-based team, and told them my journey because we were really worried about other people within the team in the company who were suffering a lot of stress. And I and it's it's easy for, you know, you see the celebrities, you see Stephen Fry, you see Prince William, you see soccer players and whatever come out and say, I've had this mental health journey. Um, but you don't see the real people in your life, you don't see the leaders in the corporate world coming out and saying it. And I think um as much as we might say to our staff, it's okay. You know, you can share this with me. The reality is that I'm afraid that if I share this with you, you're gonna think I'm not up to the job. So I shared it with the whole team, my journey. And uh, you know, I was on the leadership team. Um, I'm successful and I'm happy now, and I still have bad days. And nobody here is gonna hold it against you if you happen to be struggling. If you know, we want to help you and support you. You know, you're hot, you've been hired because we know you can do the job and you can and we will help you through this. So, you know, I just really think that if you don't work in an environment where that's possible, then you're not working in the right environment. And for your own preservation, you need to find somewhere else. But I would think that most places, most workplaces these days are really going to be supportive, and it's okay to tell people about this stuff, you know, um and get the support that you need. And oh my god, the weight that lifts off you, as soon as you tell people, it's indescribable. It made me so much better. So that's that's my message number two.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. So reach out for help. If you don't feel like you can do that in your current team or HR, then reach out to someone outside, start yeah, and and like really just reach, yeah, just ask for the help. Ask for the help. You don't have to go through it alone. And when you do the amount of people, this is like another thing with um vulnerability and leaders, right? Is you give permission for other people to go, oh, okay, maybe I'm not like weird for having this or feeling this, yeah, and actually I'm not alone, and it's okay to also have those conversations. So yeah, thank you so much for coming on. You're very welcome, thank you. Um, and congratulations, I believe you're getting married in September next month. Yes, please uh have the best time and yeah, for you. And um, yeah, really pleased that we could connect it again and um thanks for sharing your wisdom. Now you're on the other side, so that we hope other people don't have to go through it. You're very welcome. Thank you, and thanks for listening, everyone. Um, until next week, take care of the face.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Emma Clayton

Host